97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:01 pm
Setanta wrote:
Goerge's typical bombast notwithstanding, the most recent of discoveries in physics point toward chaos, not order.


Not so. Chaos, it turns out, is imbedded in simple, orderly interactions describable by quite compact rules -- it is entirely orderly, but, owing to sensitive dependence on initial conditions it is deterministic but unpredictable - not random - all very comples in detail, but orderly and simple in the large.

The simple logistics equation, y=aX(1-X) yields simple convergence for some values of the parameter, a, and chaos for others. The related fractal self-similarity yields many familiar shapes in nature, ranging from the shapes of ferns, to the branches of veins in the human body and the surface of a head of cauliflower.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:02 pm
Wasn't talking about ad hominems when I mentioned "abuse." Better go back and read some more.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:02 pm
BTW, I give a rat's ass whether you trust me or not.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:04 pm
All you do is serve to demonstrate what i've already pointed out--that humans impose order on the universe by the description. Your equation does not exist independently of your conception of it. You demonstrate an ability to construct a formula which is useful at approximating a description of the universe; you do not demonstrate that the order of which you speak exists independently of your description.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:10 pm
From Wikipedia:

" When we say that chaos theory studies deterministic systems, it is necessary to mention a related field of physics called quantum chaos theory that studies non-deterministic systems following the laws of quantum mechanics."

"Non-deterministic systems" doesn't sound like "order" to this reader.
0 Replies
 
xprmntr2
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
All you do is serve to demonstrate what i've already pointed out--that humans impose order on the universe by the description. Your equation does not exist independently of your conception of it. You demonstrate an ability to construct a formula which is useful at approximating a description of the universe; you do not demonstrate that the order of which you speak exists independently of your description.


Nominalism, that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 10:08 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
From Wikipedia:

" When we say that chaos theory studies deterministic systems, it is necessary to mention a related field of physics called quantum chaos theory that studies non-deterministic systems following the laws of quantum mechanics."

"Non-deterministic systems" doesn't sound like "order" to this reader.


"Non deterministic systems" that "follow the laws of quantum mechanics" is a contradiction in terms.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 10:19 pm
"The laws of quantum mechanics" are non-deterministic. Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:19 pm
""Non deterministic systems" that "follow the laws of quantum mechanics" is a contradiction in terms."

Hey, take it up with Wikipedia. It's their words.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:35 pm
oh well..........to hell with it all. Let's just play and have a good time. Our time is limited, you know.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:51 pm
"The following material on quantum mechanics or quantum physics and chaos theory is an excerpt from The Meaning of Life by Thomas Miezejeski. While humans are constantly looking to establish order in nature, we must accept the fact that life in very unpredictable, the most important things in our life both as individuals and as a species are subject to chance. Fortunately, science is finding that there is some underlying order in chaos, and that this order in complex systems is responsible for some of the most important progress in nature, such as evolution."
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:54 pm
I'm evolving minute by minute, CI. It's a little like being pulled in all directions......drawn and quartered, so to speak.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:57 pm
Heck, Lola, we're all evolving. As for me, I like being pulled in all directions on this planet; it makes my life worth living. Offers the opportunityh to meet some good people - even a2k ones. LOL
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 12:00 am
yes and being pulled apart in all directions makes me appreciate being all in one peice.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 10:38 am
Darwin himself realized it would be difficult for his readers to believe that evolution occurred through natural selection rather than through the design of a superior being. In "Origin of the Species", Darwin wrote:
Quote:
0 Replies
 
babylonian
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 03:46 pm
Quote:
"Order" does not exist in nature, it is a construct of the human intellect overlaid on that which we perceive, in order that we may make sense of it. Nature is supremely indifferent to our conceits about "order."


How is the human seperated from his environment in order to be able to draw conclusions that arent in alignment with it.
As a full product of nature, his very reactions are within the bounds of natures chaos.
Chaos gets bountied around as though it really does exist. It only exist because we lack all the variables to present it as order.

The same applies to fate in my opinion....for want of a better word. As soon as the die leaves the hand, its numbers are already known. If this is agreeable, then the same must be concluded about the bang.

Isnt this like action at a distance....it cannot be true unless it already knows.

too many variables....... Cool
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:13 pm
Not only too many variables, but limited by our four dimensions, and our inability to comprehend what our reality really is.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 06:20 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"The following material on quantum mechanics or quantum physics and chaos theory is an excerpt from The Meaning of Life by Thomas Miezejeski. While humans are constantly looking to establish order in nature, we must accept the fact that life in very unpredictable, the most important things in our life both as individuals and as a species are subject to chance. Fortunately, science is finding that there is some underlying order in chaos, and that this order in complex systems is responsible for some of the most important progress in nature, such as evolution."


The excerpt itself points to the intrinsic order in nature, notwithstanding our inability to predict in detail many of its outcomes, due to both inherent complexity and sensitive dependence on initial conditions. On a macro scale, the order of the visible universe is beyond doubt.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jul, 2005 08:08 pm
Your description defines disorder very well: "Our inability to predict in detail many of its outcomes, due to both inherent complexity and sensitive dependence..."
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 07:49 am
wandeljw wrote:
Darwin himself realized it would be difficult for his readers to believe that evolution occurred through natural selection rather than through the design of a superior being. In "Origin of the Species", Darwin wrote:
Quote:
That many and serious objections may be advanced against the theory of descent with modification through variation and natural selection, I do not deny. I have endeavoured to give to them their full force. Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts have been perfected, not by means superior to, though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor.


I'm not sure I like Darwin's writing style; a bit pokey. But he was right, the truth of those propositions cannot be disputed. And that alone is an exceedingly powerful argument.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 03:42:22