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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 08:39 am
rosborne,

Personally I think that Darwin already answered arguments similar to those of intelligent design theory. Therefore, teaching intelligent design alongside natural selection is like teaching geocentrism alongside heliocentrism.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:50 am
Darwin's literary style is very much a product of the nineteenth century. There was no television, no radio, and most towns and cities would not support a large and elaborate theater community. Public speaking was the most popular form of group entertainment, especially in the evening. When people stayed home, reading aloud was equally as popular. Public speakers and authors were esteemed for their ability to express themselves in what was then considered an elegant manner, and which displayed the author or speaker's erudition. When Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg, he used a few minutes. Edward Everett had spoken before he did, and spoke literally for hours. Everett was a quick, perceptive intellect, and he immediately congratulated Lincoln for saying as much or more on the subject in minutes than he had in hours. However, neither the press nor the public were impressed, and most accounts, if they mentioned Lincoln's speech at all, found it lackluster and pedestrian.

Darwin's writing style is surprisingly lucid by the standards of his day.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 02:01 pm
wandeljw wrote:
rosborne,

Personally I think that Darwin already answered arguments similar to those of intelligent design theory. Therefore, teaching intelligent design alongside natural selection is like teaching geocentrism alongside heliocentrism.


Hi Wand, I agree. The validity of evolution and the sillyness of ID have been demonstrated many times over the years by many people. The fact that we are still debating it today is a sad commentary on the education system in the US as well as the general tendency of the population to want to believe something, rather than to try to understand something.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 02:10 pm
Setanta wrote:
Darwin's literary style is very much a product of the nineteenth century. There was no television, no radio, and most towns and cities would not support a large and elaborate theater community. Public speaking was the most popular form of group entertainment, especially in the evening. When people stayed home, reading aloud was equally as popular. Public speakers and authors were esteemed for their ability to express themselves in what was then considered an elegant manner, and which displayed the author or speaker's erudition. When Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg, he used a few minutes. Edward Everett had spoken before he did, and spoke literally for hours. Everett was a quick, perceptive intellect, and he immediately congratulated Lincoln for saying as much or more on the subject in minutes than he had in hours. However, neither the press nor the public were impressed, and most accounts, if they mentioned Lincoln's speech at all, found it lackluster and pedestrian.

Darwin's writing style is surprisingly lucid by the standards of his day.


I probably shouldn't have criticized Darwin's writing style, since my own leaves so much to be desired, but that particular paragraph Wandeljw quoted didn't seem to flow very well, even though Darwin's point was well made (lucid, as you say).

In general, I'm very impressed with much of the nineteenth century writing, even that of the average ground soldier in the civil war. Many of the journals saved from that time have a lyrical quality which I don't find much in writing these days.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:42 pm
OT, but this might be interesting..

Planets and life had very early opportunities to emerge in the universe


Quote:
NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope has found the ingredients for life all the way back to a time when the universe was a mere youngster.

Using Spitzer, scientists have detected organic molecules in galaxies when our universe was one-fourth of its current age of about 14 billion years. These large molecules, known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, are comprised of carbon and hydrogen. The molecules are considered to be among the building blocks of life.

These complex molecules are very common on Earth. They form any time carbon-based materials are not burned completely. They can be found in sooty exhaust from cars and airplanes, and in charcoal broiled hamburgers and burnt toast.

The molecules, pervasive in galaxies like our own Milky Way, play a significant role in star and planet formation. Spitzer is the first telescope to see these molecules so far back in time.

"This is 10 billion years further back in time than we've seen them before," said Dr. Lin Yan of the Spitzer Science Center at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif. Yan is lead author of a study to be published in the August 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal. Previous missions -- the Infrared Astronomical Satellite and the Infrared Space Observatory -- detected these types of galaxies and molecules much closer to our own Milky Way galaxy. Spitzer's sensitivity is 100 times greater than these previous infrared telescope missions, enabling direct detection of organics so far away.

Since Earth is approximately four-and-a-half billion years old, these organic materials existed in the universe well before our planet and solar system were formed and may have even been the seeds of our solar system. Spitzer found the organic compounds in galaxies where intense star formation had taken place over a short period of time. These "flash in the pan" starburst galaxies are nearly invisible in optical images because they are very far away and contain large quantities of light-absorbing dust. But the same dust glows brightly in infrared light and is easily spotted by Spitzer.

Spitzer's infrared spectrometer split the galaxies' infrared light into distinct features that revealed the presence of organic components. These organic features gave scientists a milepost to gauge the distance of these galaxies. This is the first time scientists have been able to measure a distance as great as 10-billion light years away using the spectral fingerprints of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

"These complex compounds tell us that by the time we see these galaxies, several generations of stars have already been formed," said Dr. George Helou of the Spitzer Science Center, a co-author of the study. "Planets and life had very early opportunities to emerge in the universe."
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 06:04 pm
satt, many areas of the universe actually give off spectra for specific dextro proteins and nucleotides.

IMHO, Darwin, woos that he was, had amassed around him many of the master debators of the time. Huxley,Hooker Lyell, Spencer, and others had taken up the cause (and earned tidy honoraria) by debating the theory and Natural Selection against Rev Wilberforce, Owen, and John Stuart Mill. Darwins good fortunethat the British loved good intelligent debate as much as , a good hanging was quite evident.The debates were "sold out" events. Even Darwins opponents, like Mill, actually supported some of the Darwin "troupe" like Spencer, who, after the publication of his first volume of "First Principles" In which he laid out the "Social Darwinist" philosophy for which many modern day Righties incorrectly cast upon Darwin himself, Spencer was busted. His first book tanked and , in order to lay out his entire story in the planned seven volume set Spencer needed money. Mill underwote the publication of these volumes over the next 20 years or so. The point was made that, if somebody like Mill could evaluate Applied Darwinian thought, in a dispassionate way, Maybe the entire natural selection and the Man/monkey thing had some merit. So before Darwin died , his theory was pretty much accepted and gradually proven
Darwin was the author and ringleader but he was exceedingly shy . What really put him on the map was his worldwide orchid collection. Here, because of the shapes of orchid calyces, he attributed the special pollination equipment needed to invade the orchids calyx, to an often (then) unknown symbiaont pollinator. He had a very articulated orchid from
Madagascar that he "created a conceptual model" for a then unknown pollinating insect with a uniquely shaped proboscis that had to fit the orchid "lock and key" Shortly (By Victorian terms), but less than about 5 years after he announced the specially adapted pollinator, the previously unknown insect, a big proboscid butterfly with a unique shape that fit the unique orchid, was found. This was world news in them days. Darwin was not only a good read with some good science, he was able to use nat selection topredict aspects and mechanics of what we nowadays term coevolution
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satt fs
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jul, 2005 07:06 pm
farmerman wrote:
satt, many areas of the universe actually give off spectra for specific dextro proteins and nucleotides.

The universe is not a simple volume of matter or void but it is a complicated entity of timespace. The article refers to a very early stage of the universe.
And evolution refers to time.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 10:12 am
Farmerman briefly mentioned that Darwin himself should not be blamed for "social darwinism". Darwin did not intend his theory to be extended by analogy to the social sciences which is what Herbert Spencer tried to do by inventing "social darwinism".
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 10:22 am
wandeljw wrote:
Darwin did not intend his theory to be extended by analogy to the social sciences which is what Herbert Spencer tried to do by inventing "social darwinism".


That may be the case but as far as I'm aware Darwin did not actively try to disassociate evolution from Spencer's application of his model to the social sciences.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 10:38 am
I do not know either whether Darwin actually disassociated himself from Spencer's philosophy (but I hope he did). In my opinion, social darwinism should not be taught in elementary or secondary schools. Parents should pledge to exclude both social darwinism and creationism from the education of their children.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 04:19 pm
When I get to talk with my buddy , who's a Darwin Scholar, Ill ask whether there was an official repudiation of Spencer, but like Acquiunk, I think Darwin was so happy to have all the "buzz" about natural selection that he sort of welcomed most support. It was also, spencer and Mills association that gave Darwin a real jolt of acceptance.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 04:30 pm
Here's a good link on Spencer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Spencer
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satt fs
 
  1  
Sat 30 Jul, 2005 04:36 pm
"Survival of the fittest" was originally Spencer's term and Darwin later adopted the word in his writing. This does not mean Darwin liked Spencer's ideas.
"Natural selection" was Darwin's original term.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 07:21 am
Herbert Spencer created an entire philosophical system on the idea that the laws of evolution applied to subjects such as politics and ethics. Spencer had some popularity in Victorian England but is no longer taken seriously. Darwin himself did not venture into philosophy and restricted his writings to natural science only.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 07:36 am
It is clear, from his diary, that Charles Darwind did not favor the character of Herbert Spencer and his theory.
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Contrarian2
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 12:47 pm
xprmntr2 wrote:
......corresponds to what I have understood as I look around me and as I do my own work....I am not as articulate,...but the work I do in my own life I see magnified a million times in the universe around me.


Xpr, you use what Pascal called the esprit de finesse, which he contrasted with the esprit geometrique. (I am quoting here from Barzun's essay Scholarship Vs. Culture) "It does not analyze, does not break things down into parts [as the e.d.g. does], but seizes upon the character of the whole altogether, by inspection short or long....The understanding derived from the experience is direct; and because it lacks definitions, principles, or numbers, such an understanding is not readily conveyed to somebody else; in can only be done in words that suggest analogies, by imagery."

A few paragraphs before that, he writes, "the by-product of the great achievement of sciences is that everybody's mind is now shaped from the cradle to desire and to trust analysis exclusively." (Evidently, you have managed to remain unscathed by that.)

On the next page, we read, "Everybody knows that scientific truth often goes against common sense; from this generality many infer that a position that violates common sense is bound to be true. The public is now convinced of this blatant non-sequitur and gives its preference to the outlandish, provided it appears based on method."

On the last page, he makes an even more pertinent observation: "No doubt the overabundance of works new and old, the multiplicity of things to remember-----names, tendencies and schools, doctrines----cheapens every object and idea and so clutters up mind and memory as to prevent meditation and abort conversation."
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 01:53 pm
The state of Missouri also has pending legislation requiring an evolution disclaimer in their public schools. Today's issue of The Missourian (a Columbia, Missouri newspaper) talks about the controversy in that state. Below are some excerpts:
Quote:
High school science standards are crafted to mirror the predominant research in scholarly fields. By the time a topic makes it into the standards, it has been rigorously tested and supported by a scientific consensus.
That's why scientists such as Dan Miller, head of the Science Department at Hickman High School, say evolution's critics are trying to bypass the scientific process and head straight to the classroom, via politics and rhetoric.
"We start out the evolution unit knowing it's a hot potato," he says.
Miller is tuned into the controversy. He knows about intelligent design, about state Rep. Cynthia Davis' bill to require criticism of evolution in science texts, about the pro-evolution lobbying of the National Center for Science Education and the intelligent design powerhouse, the Discovery Institute. He says he's not married to Charles Darwin; he just understands the nature of science and wants his students to understand it as well.
"The intelligent design bills come from lawyers, not scientists," Miller says. "It's all about pushing an agenda."
Evolution gives teachers a chance to go back to the basics of what science can and cannot do, Miller says.
In Columbia the curriculum compels teachers to use fossils, similarities in anatomy and DNA between species to support the theory of evolution. Neither state nor local standards tell schools which materials to use.
.
Copyright © 2005 Columbia Missourian
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 01:57 pm
wandeljw wrote:
The state of Missouri also has pending legislation requiring an evolution disclaimer in their public schools. Today's issue of The Missourian (a Columbia, Missouri newspaper) talks about the controversy in that state. Below are some excerpts:
Quote:
High school science standards are crafted to mirror the predominant research in scholarly fields. By the time a topic makes it into the standards, it has been rigorously tested and supported by a scientific consensus.
That's why scientists such as Dan Miller, head of the Science Department at Hickman High School, say evolution's critics are trying to bypass the scientific process and head straight to the classroom, via politics and rhetoric.
"We start out the evolution unit knowing it's a hot potato," he says.
Miller is tuned into the controversy. He knows about intelligent design, about state Rep. Cynthia Davis' bill to require criticism of evolution in science texts, about the pro-evolution lobbying of the National Center for Science Education and the intelligent design powerhouse, the Discovery Institute. He says he's not married to Charles Darwin; he just understands the nature of science and wants his students to understand it as well.
"The intelligent design bills come from lawyers, not scientists," Miller says. "It's all about pushing an agenda."
Evolution gives teachers a chance to go back to the basics of what science can and cannot do, Miller says.
In Columbia the curriculum compels teachers to use fossils, similarities in anatomy and DNA between species to support the theory of evolution. Neither state nor local standards tell schools which materials to use.
.
Copyright © 2005 Columbia Missourian

There ought to be a law requiring someone to have a college degree in a scientific field or pass a proficiency test, before having any input into the curriculum. These people are simply not qualified, unless they have such degrees, to speak to matters of science, and they ought to shut up.
0 Replies
 
xprmntr2
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 04:40 pm
Contrarian2 wrote:
Xpr, you use what Pascal called the esprit de finesse, which he contrasted with the esprit geometrique.


Finesse?http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cartoon/1238.gif Sure, I try to use that in my designs, too. (Although you'd be surprised how often I use geometric principles as well.) I work with imagination every day; I know the difference between 2 oranges sitting on my table vs. 2 oranges I'm visualizing in my head. I suppose some people would try to tell me that the ones on the table are just in my head, too.http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1159.gif

(What I'm wondering, then, is HOW do they know that the words appearing on the screen of their computer aren't just merely in their head, too? How could we have a conversation here, if it were all just "in our head"?)http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1087.gif
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Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 1 Aug, 2005 09:54 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Parents should pledge to exclude both social darwinism and creationism from the education of their children.

I agree that creationism isn't worth teaching, but I don't see any good reason to exclude Spencer's writings from school curriculae. For example, I was quite impressed by his Six Essays on Government, Society and Freedom. They were intelligent and interesting, as were his Social Statics -- the book in which he coined the phrase "survival of the fittest". Herbert Spencer does not deserve the proto-Nazi image that well meaning progressives have created about him all over the world after the fall of Adolf Hitler.
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