15
   

NFL Fires a Player qua Domestic Violence; morally right??

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 01:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

engineer wrote:

Based on NFL history and practice prior to this, the agreement is that nothing would happen or you would have to agree to counseling. This one strike and you are banned forever policy is completely new and is being applied retroactively. Rice was originally given a two game ban.

Nor do I recall the NFL ever before handing out a punishment, and then with no new information increase it based upon PR needs. That they did this really gets in the way of the NFL line that they are now in the domestic violence justice business......justice has nothing to do with appeasing angry mobs.
These r all very good points.
GREAT is their merit!





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 02:17 pm
Quote:
NFLPA appeal of Ray Rice suspension important for future precedent
By Will Brinson | NFL Writer
September 16, 2014

How do you defend Ray Rice?''Stop answering that Paul George, it's a rhetorical question. Rice's actions were indefensible.

Which is what makes the NFLPA's job in the coming days -- the union has until Tuesday night to file an appeal for Rice's suspension and will likely do so -- and weeks/months so difficult.

The union has to defend Rice. Or, more technically, it has to defend against Rice's punishment and the possibility of letting the league set a bad precedent.

The words "have to" there are no joke: the union is required to push on this appeal even if the misconception of "defending Rice" might pop up in the minds of people in the general public as the wrong thing to do. It's not though.

See, Rice's actions -- in a vacuum -- are worth an indefinite suspension. He punched his fiancee in the face. On camera. Knocking her unconscious.

But the NFL didn't suspend Rice indefinitely based on what he did. The league suspended Rice two games for what he did. Then public outcry snowballed into a flat-out vortex of outrage on the Monday after Week 1 when the video from inside the elevator emerged.

The Ravens and NFL acted swiftly, with Rice's team releasing him and Roger Goodell hammering Rice with the indefinite suspension.

Again, a perfectly logical move in a vacuum. But it's not a fair one based on the concept of double jeopardy. Someone can't be punished twice for the same crime, which is even set out fairly explicitly in the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Article 46, Section 4 of the 2011 CBA specifically sets out "One Penalty" for players under Commissioner discipline.

"The Commissioner and the Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct," the CBA reads. "The Commissioner's disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct."

This is precisely why the Ravens were forced to release Rice. They couldn't suspend him after he'd already received the two-game league suspension. And theoretically, the league shouldn't be able to double down on Rice's punishment either, although the CBA isn't explicit in terms of shutting down double jeopardy.

The logic from the NFL is, basically, "things changed." (My words.) But -- even if he straight-up lied -- that's not Rice's fault. He didn't investigate the incident and he's not responsible for doling out punishment. The league is.

The league admittedly failed at properly punishing Rice and tried to make amends for that by hitting Rice with a second, more aggressive punishment.

The problem: This sort of thing that is the very definition of a due process violation, which as union spokesman George Atallah pointed out recently, "is precisely the reason we exist.

"[Making sure due process gets followed] is precisely the reason we exist," Atallah said. "We want to be sure to make a distinction between supporting a player's fair due-process rights under our collective bargaining agreement while also, of course, not agreeing with the actions that everybody has seen play out on video.

"We have an obligation as a union to our members to make sure that their rights are not infringed upon. It's not only our fiduciary obligation to them, but it is required by labor law. The message should be clear that the incidents involving any one of our members reverberate and have a broader impact on all players."

Due process is a phrase being thrown around a lot these days when discussing off-field NFL situations. The league and its teams want to wait and see what happens in the legal process before handing out punishment for guys like Adrian Peterson, Greg Hardy and Ray McDonald.

Making sure everyone gets that due process is fair. That is precisely why Rice's appeal is so necessary, especially when you consider the potential precedent here. The NFL can't be allowed to punish Rice repeatedly for the same action just because the action was later perceived as more problematic than when the initial punishment was issued.

Hypothetically, a player is arrested for DUI and suspended two games. In the middle of the suspension, video emerges of the DUI, making it appear worse than initially believed (maybe the hypothetical player is filmed going back and forth with a police officer; make up whatever circumstances you want). The league then ratchets up the suspension, using the Rice case as precedent.

It's not something anyone should want to see happening, mainly because it's such a dangerous and wide-open precedent.

The reasoning for Rice's indefinite suspension is wholly justified. Look at the tape. But the process for arriving there is flawed.

Regardless of what you think about Rice's actions, no one wants a world where people can be arbitrarily punished multiple times for the same crime, no matter how heinous it is.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24711519/nflpas-appeal-of-ray-rice-suspension-important-for-future-precedent

This article cites additional legal reasons why the NFL ban on Rice may be overturned on appeal.
Why The NFL's Indefinite Ban Of Ray Rice Won't Stand
http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/09/16/why-the-nfls-indefinite-ban-of-ray-rice-wont-stand/
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 02:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
There's an angry mob? Where is it?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 02:51 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
The question remains, do you help the situation by firing someone who commits a non-work related crime? I don't see it. Rice now has no incentive to work on his problem..
What is going to stop him from doing it again now that he has no job, plenty of money and the hatred of the entire country? Is this a better place for the victim or would continued pressure to improve so he could have a chance to salvage his career been a better choice?

He still has an incentive imposed by the court. He must successfully complete the requirements of his pre-trial diversion program, which includes counseling, otherwise he will face a trial and possible conviction for his domestic violence offense. I believe he must remain in this program for a year.

If he continues to repeat acts of domestic violence, that come to the attention of the court, he will no longer receive lenient treatment as a first offender, and he will wind up facing jail time.

Hopefully, his "continued pressure to improve" should come from some realization and awareness on his part that what he did was wrong and that it imperiled the health, safety, and welfare, of his partner, and such behavior on his part should never be repeated. He needs to commit himself to finding non-violent ways of responding to provocation and expressing his anger toward his partner.

I think he could become an excellent spokesperson for anti-domestic violence initiatives and education campaigns, and I hope he does take that route.
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 03:12 pm
@engineer,
When the judge gave Rice the option of" pre-trial intervention program vs felony" he hadn't watched the video...it's still possible he may go for a felony conviction. It wouldn't constitute double jeopardy . I doubt t it though...nobody here would convict him...after all...he plays football.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 05:58 pm
@Germlat,
Quote:
I doubt t it though...nobody here would convict him...after all...he plays football.

for me the clincher is that Janay does not want him charged. As a standard procedure in the matter of sex or violence I dont want the state to step in unless one or more of the parties wants the state to take action. There are limits to this of course.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 06:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I doubt t it though...nobody here would convict him...after all...he plays football.

for me the clincher is that Janay does not want him charged. As a standard procedure in the matter of sex or violence I dont want the state to step in unless one or more of the parties wants the state to take action. There are limits to this of course.

I have nothing to say....it's not uncommon for victims of crime to not participate....weird to me...but all too common. Sad but true.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 06:21 pm
@Germlat,
Quote:
I have nothing to say....it's not uncommon for victims of crime to not participate....weird to me...but all too common. Sad but true.


what is sad is the collective running over Janay after Ray did it. The anti Ray move would have been to find out what Janay wanted, to treat her as an valuable person who has ownership of herself and as a person whos will is important. Janay wanting something that you dont approve of is no reason to dismiss her. If you look at the press however almost all you see re Janay is alleged ex victims making the claim that ignoring what Janay wants is the right move because she must be too damaged to have a say....as proven by the fact that she wants something that we are told that she should not want. Nice circular logic. It is also justification for abuse.

Nope. I start from the position that abuse is not justified. Hamans are going to abuse, that is part of our natures, but dont give me a song and dance about how it is the right thing to do.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 06:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Sally Jenkins

Quote:
When Roger Goodell took over as NFL commissioner in 2006, he declared a new NFL “personal conduct policy,” contending that players needed to be held “to a higher standard” to protect the image and integrity of the league. The scandals now engulfing the league can be traced to a single source: the supercilious arrogance of a commissioner who thought that the deepest societal ills — domestic abuse, sexual violence, drug use — could be handled with a morals clause.

The irony of Goodell’s “policy” is that it actually was an implicit slur on the league, a questioning of the character of all players. It stereotyped them as potential wanton marauders incapable of self-governance. And positioned them as guilty boys standing before the schoolmaster with a stick.

The nasty little secret of the NFL is that the men who run the game don’t think very highly of the men who play it. That’s the real underpinning of all of Goodell’s posturing about discipline and talk about “due process”: It’s all a cover for fear and guilt on the executive suite level, because so many NFL teams have fielded players despite knowing they had serious issues. Some teams even sought out these players, because they saw those issues as assets on the field. Andrew Brandt, who spent a decade in the front office of the Green Bay Packers, remembers an occasion when the team considered signing a player with a rap sheet as long as a city block.

Brandt said, “I just don’t feel good about bringing this guy in.” To which another team official replied: “What do you think we’re asking these guys to do? We want this guy to get into 75 street fights every game, and win ’em. We’re not asking him to lead a boys choir.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/personal-conduct-policy-unfairly-demonizes-vast-majority-of-nfl-players-who-dont-hit/2014/09/16/258b8912-3de0-11e4-9587-5dafd96295f0_story.html?hpid=z5

Jenkins picks up on the hypocrisy of the NFL that I have already spoken of, and she is exactly right that what the NFL is harvesting now is the result of their idiotic move to zero tolerance. That program has been a disaster in the schools, and it has been a disaster everywhere I know of it ever being tried. Treating humans like animals, treating adults as children...this removal of rights, will never end well.

Quote:
Goodell’s “personal conduct policy” is a failure for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that in making “player discipline” such a self-congratulating and high-profile priority, he invited the current scrutiny and distortion. As former linebacker James Harrison tweeted, “Ain’t no fun when the rabbit got the gun, huh?” But mainly, Goodell’s policy is a failure because it stigmatizes players while failing to address the fundamental, profound reality that there are some ills that get the best of people.


Yep, and mark my words the NFL will pay down the road with crippling labor problems.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 07:27 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:

When the judge gave Rice the option of" pre-trial intervention program vs felony" he hadn't watched the video...

Why not? It was in police hands. If the judge didn't watch the tape then that is his negligence.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2014 09:32 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Why not? It was in police hands. If the judge didn't watch the tape then that is his negligence.


not to mention the state of the state is dismal and getting worse in a hurry, but I have not herd about that many incompetent judges. Massively over worked judges yes. Incompetent and/or corrupt DA's...you betcha we have increasing numbers of those. I dont believe in the American state anymore, only an idiot could, but I still believe in Judges.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 05:26 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Why not? It was in police hands. If the judge didn't watch the tape then that is his negligence.


not to mention the state of the state is dismal and getting worse in a hurry, but I have not herd about that many incompetent judges. Massively over worked judges yes. Incompetent and/or corrupt DA's...you betcha we have increasing numbers of those. I dont believe in the American state anymore, only an idiot could, but I still believe in Judges.


I'd love to understand what you mean when you wrote:

"I don't believe in the American state anymore..."

...and...

"I still believe in judges."

Comments such as these are among the reasons I have so much trouble with that word.
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 06:55 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Based on NFL history and practice prior to this, the agreement is that nothing would happen or you would have to agree to counseling. This one strike and you are banned forever policy is completely new and is being applied retroactively. Rice was originally given a two game ban.

The NFL is interested in filling seats. Forever banned is different from indefinite suspension, which sounds more like an exact length of time is not established. I don't think they're concerned with anything but public opinion , at this point.
Also- the sweetheart deal(PTI) that was awarded to Rice, is only awarded in about 1% of cases! So--know Rice goes to anger management, and keeps his act clean for a year and there will be no trace on his legal record. Then once the public hatred dies down, the NFL will take him back. Also--the marriage sounds a bit like an effort for damage control..so there you go.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 06:59 am
@Germlat,
The NFL was de facto fining the victim (wife).
The victim raised her voice in objection.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 07:15 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

The NFL was de facto fining the victim (wife).
The victim raised her voice in objection.

I remember a few decades back, when it was still necessary for a victim of abuse to file charges. I'm not sure it's still that way in some states. In many cases the victim would not go through with it and charges were dropped. Many of those victims died, where inflicted permanent damage, physical disfigurement, etc. I think that was the reason for changes in laws concerning domestic violence.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 07:22 am
@Germlat,
If the victim refuses to testify against defendant,
then the D.A. might well have an impossible case,
with no one to present any evidence to the trial jury
(or even to the grand jury, beforehand) unless someone else
saw it happen, or if it got fotografed, as in this case.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 07:25 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

If the victim refuses to testify against defendant,
then the D.A. might well have an impossible case,
with no one to present any evidence to the trial jury
(or even to the grand jury, beforehand) unless someone else
saw it happen, or if it got fotografed, as in this case.

Medical personnel are required to report cases of suspected abuse. Often times, family members, friends or witnesses of any kind can provide information.
Electronic conversations conversations, medical record, photographs, can all be used as evidence.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 10:31 am
@Germlat,
Quote:
The NFL is interested in filling seats.
The NFL also must be interested in having a product to sell. In order to get that product it must deal with talent...the players. Treating them as children will not help.

We see that the Vikings succumed to pressure from sponsors, the MN GOV and the commish's office and banned Peterson just two days after bringing him back with a strong statement of support. THe NFL's labor problems are about to blow up.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 11:07 am
@hawkeye10,
Nike just dropped Peterson.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 02:58 am
It's really kicking off.

Quote:
Jonathan Dwyer of the Arizona Cardinals has been arrested on suspicion of domestic violence, police have said.

The 25-year-old running back, facing charges of aggravated assault and preventing someone from calling 911, has been suspended from the team.

The charges are from two altercations at his home in July involving a woman and an 18-month-old child.

His arrest comes after a recent spate of high profile assault incidents involving American football players.

Earlier this month Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice was suspended indefinitely after a video emerged of him knocking out his then-fiancee.

After Ray Rice was suspended, Minnesota Vikings star running back Adrian Peterson was indicted on child-abuse charges.

Critics have been calling on NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell to step down after Rice initially received just a two-game ban for his assault.

Earlier this week the league announced it is hiring four women as advisers on domestic violence.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29247819
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Should cheerleading be a sport? - Discussion by joefromchicago
Are You Ready For Fantasy Baseball - 2009? - Discussion by realjohnboy
tennis grip - Question by madalina
How much faster could Usain Bolt have gone? - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Sochi Olympics a Resounding Success - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 02:03:35