Should "on par, if not worse, than" be "on par, if not worse than, with"?

Forums: English, Esl, Grammar
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Context:

In contrast, in the current budget impasse, or Day Four of the government shutdown, fear is conspicuously absent from the Wall Street scene, despite dire warnings from the U.S. Treasury on Thursday that a U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis on par, if not worse, than the 2008 financial crisis.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2013/10/06/investor-fear-absent-despite-debt-fight/2924175/

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Type: Question • Score: 5 • Views: 1,643 • Replies: 34

[+3] - McTag - 10/11/2013 That is a good example of JTT logic. It is not my responsibility that 4,500,000 posts have been clumsily or wrongly written, according to your figures. I'm not answerable for that. I only...

View best answer, chosen by oristarA

U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis on a par with, if not worse than, the 2008 one.

0 Replies

@oristarA,

Ori, 'on par' means equal to, even with. It's a golf term. Each hole on the course has a par of either 3,4 or 5, add them up to get the course score or par. If you play they course or the whole game 'on par' then you have evened the playing field.
The sentence is fine as is.
Try this..
'despite dire warnings from the U.S. Treasury on Thursday that a U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis even with, if not worse, than the 2008 financial crisis.'

'despite dire warnings from the U.S. Treasury on Thursday that a U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis equal to, if not worse, than the 2008 financial crisis.'

The word/verb be is unnecessary.

1 Reply

Contrex is right (and so Ceili must be wrong, sorry).

1 Reply

In British English we say that X is on a par with Y, but in US English maybe it's different? I've looked in a few US dictionaries and they all say an a par.

1 Reply

@McTag,

It's from an American newspaper. I win. Wink

0 Replies

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

I've looked in a few US dictionaries and they all say an a par.

on a par

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Ori, 'on par' means equal to, even with. It's a golf term. Each hole on the course has a par of either 3,4 or 5, add them up to get the course score or par. If you play they course or the whole game 'on par' then you have evened the playing field.
The sentence is fine as is.
Try this..
'despite dire warnings from the U.S. Treasury on Thursday that a U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis even with, if not worse, than the 2008 financial crisis.'

'despite dire warnings from the U.S. Treasury on Thursday that a U.S. debt default would lead to a financial crisis equal to, if not worse, than the 2008 financial crisis.'

The word/verb be is unnecessary.

1) "on par, if not worse, than"- wrong. Because:

"if not worse than" - right;
"on par than" - wrong.

2) "even with, if not worse, than" -wrong. Because:
"if not worse than" - right;
"even with than" - wrong.

3) "equal to, if not worse, than" - wrong. Because:
"if not worse than" - right;
"equal to than" - wrong.

0 Replies

McTag and Contrex are right, Ceili.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

Ori, come to Canada and tell everyone here that.
When I screw up Chinglish we'll talk.

1 Reply

@contrex,

Look at google. There are 638 million + usages of 'on par'. In fact, the NY Times has an entire golf section called On Par. I can appreciate that English is spoken differently in different places, doesn't mean it's in the dictionary.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

I maintain you are mistaken in this, Ceili. Consider

at the height of
on a level with
just as fast as
to the extent that
on a par with

It's all part of a pattern.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Quote:

There are 638 million + usages of 'on par'. In fact, the NY Times has an entire golf section called On Par

Can you filter the golf reports out of this? I wonder what would be left. This is a new construct to me. In all my long life I believe I've never seen it outside of the world of golf.

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

In all my long life I believe I've never seen it outside of the world of golf.

Stock market folk talk about stocks trading "at par" but we can't just say that is OK in normal English. I think Ceili is fighting a rearguard action here

0 Replies

@McTag,

Quote:

Consider

at the height of
on a level with
just as fast as
to the extent that
on a par with

It's all part of a pattern.

What might that pattern be, McTag?

=========

Google Advanced Search

Exact phrase

"on par with"

132,000,000

"on a par with"

53,200,000

0 Replies

From the Times of India
Pawan Kalyan on par with Shahrukh Khan
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-10-03/news-interviews/42663406_1_pawan-kalyan-attarintiki-daredi-powerstar<br />

From the Wall Street Journal
Toys "R" Us Inc. plans to hire 45,000 employees during the holiday season, on par with the toy retailer's holiday hiring last year.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130924-702629.html

From Reuters
Schlumberger targets equipment reliability on par with autos.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/12/schlumberger-reliability-idUSL2N0H81IB20130912<br />

See the pattern here...

2 Replies

@Ceili,

Yes

0 Replies

@Ceili,

These quotations are headlines.
They are abbreviations.

Consider: in
on time
on budget
on average
etc.
we know what we are talking about: time, money, averages etc. "On par" is not like that. It has to be compared. That is why "on a par with" is the phrase of choice, exactly the same as "at the level of".

It's high time foreigners learned the language correctly. Wink

2 Replies

@McTag,

Quote:

These quotations are headlines.
They are abbreviations.

All 132 million. I don't think so.

Quote:

"On par" is not like that. It has to be compared. That is why "on a par with" is the phrase of choice, exactly the same as "at the level of".

All three of Ceili's examples had 'with'.

Quote:

It's high time foreigners learned the language correctly.

It's high time someone paid attention to reality. Wink

0 Replies

@McTag,

No they weren't. The middle example is from the Wall Street Journal. It's from a complete sentence, in the middle of a paragraph. I'm not saying this is the way people in the rest of the world talk, but N. America is a sports dominated society.
We don't say on a par with, we say on par with, or at least here in my provincial little town.
If I say half-eight. What does that mean to you? Can you find the term in a dictionary. If I said the same term here, most people would say four... My point is, on par - on a par are idioms, more than abbreviations.
Consider: in? I'm not sure I get what point you're making with the on time, on budget stuff. I would never say on a time, unless it was prefaced by Once up.. I'm either on time or late. My company is either on budget or we're in the red. If someone's on a budget, they're probably broke. On average people prefer blue. On an average night, you can see the moon.

1 Reply

Should "on par, if not worse, than" be "on par, if not worse than, with"?

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