For Christians - why is the Universe so big?

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Hi all from Australia! My first post.

I saw an interesting documentary yesterday (Putting God on trial - a 3 part series) that charted the uneasy relationship between scientists and christians evolved over the last millennia. It started by explaining that to scientists God was the Gap between the known and the unknown, with the unknown shrinking at an incredible rate. So God was minimised by science almost to oblivion over the last 500 years.

Episode 1 examined the perceived decreasing role of God in a modern society once scientists discovered the Big Bang (viewing it as the opposite of a black hole being formed). So on one hand you have scientists saying we don't want mysteries - we want to understand creation right back to the big bang and now we can, its just a black hole being formed in reverse. You don't need a God to throw the switch or even guide creation once you understand how quantum physics or membrane theory allows for creation events from nothing.

But then just when science has it neatly boxed a bigger, more powerful and challenging question is poised; why does intelligent life exists, why does our Universe permit intelligent life?

This is a hard one - because for all the fundamental laws of physics there are a few constants (about 17) that are exquisitely fine tuned to allow for life. If the mass of a proton was double or if an electron weighed 5% less, if the speed of light was slightly faster, in planck constant was 2% lower etc... intelligent life couldn't exist. So scientists and theoretical physicsts must ask why is our Universe so well tuned to allow for life. Well there are 3 possibilities:

1. The fundamental constants of physics are what they are because of some equisite interdependence amongst all the laws of physics that we don't yet know that only allows these constants to have these particular values. The trouble with that is the fine tuning involved requires accuracy of the cosmological constant to a 1 ^ -120 a tuning - simply far beyond rational belief. There seems no credible reason or theory on the horizon on why this incredible accuracy is built into that one factor and nothing else.

2. There are an infinite multitude of Universes we can't observe and ours is just a permutation that can support intelligent life - so life has briefly developed. The hugh odds against this, about 1 ^120, don't matter when you have infinite possiblities to shop amongst. But scientists don't like infinities. Why are there infinite Universes and why can't we find a way to detect them? We have no theories to explore this yet.

3. The mind of God actually does exist and God actually did select our Specific Universe with its variables so well tuned to allow for our existence and henceforth God used science - not magic - to direct our existence and development.

It goes on to say science shows us how things operate but not why. It gives us understanding but no purpose. It was brilliant that some of the people at the fore-front of astronomy, quantum physics and theoretical physics were involved. Including some ordained bishops who had held Physics chairs for over 20 years.

The show worked so well because it wasn't inflammatory to anyone's views and treated all with respect. Here are top physicists who don't believe in God and want to see reality through science. But when they almost complete their goal they are left with a deeper more challenging puzzle which points to the existence of a far more powerful and subtle god than ever contained in the scriptures.

Finally a paradox. A few centuries ago christians believed the Earth was special. Creation orbited around it and everything was placed here for us. Then science showed we are a minute, unimportant dot in a vast ocean of space - totally inconsequential in location, size, position and any other descriptor you care to name. But comming full circle scientists themselves have realized a hidden truth that the faithful have always believed. The Universe only has meaning because we are here, created within it and able to comprehend it. In a way we define the Universe like nothing else and we elevate its importance as it provides for us in a virtuous circle. That is an amazing revelation for a scientist to say. We define the importance of the Universe. Without us it would have no meaning!

But for Christians an equally large, complex and significant question was left unasked. Why is the Universe so Big? With around 10 ^ 100 planets and suns - why has God made such a large place for us - what does he want us to eventually do in such a large playground?

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Perhaps he has created other worlds that are far away, with intelligent life. In any case the universe would have to be big. It follows the laws of thermo-dynamics. I'm sure most people are familiar with the second law of thermo-dynamics. And to sustain that aspect of thermo-dynamism entropic diffusion becomes a necessity. In parts of space where no order exists between matter, how could things possibly become less orderly? The simple answer is expanding. An orderless system may diffuse to further the call of entropy. Thus the universe grows. In a sense the universe around our particular system serves as a very nice shock absorber for the nasty bumps of physics. Personally I believe our system is attended by a man with far more knowledge of physics than we have, and I'm sure he has mapped out exactly what he intends to do with this universe. Right now he is occupied by us, but I'm sure he has plans for us in the afterlife, and I wouldn't be surprised if those plans further utilize the latent realms of space.

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if there were no intelligent life, then your questions would go unasked.

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If there was no intelligent life we'd have no problems - true but not the point of this post!

You need more than entropy to justify 10 ^ 90 galactic clusters!

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I gave more than entropy. Besides, it is my understanding that god did not create the universe, but merely organized parts of it. He is living in it himself. To me the universe is a set of all systems, so it doesn't make sense to say that god is seperate from it. If he were indeed seperate from our perception of the universe, than his unique system would still be grouped with the others under the term universe. Alternate demensions are just science fiction if I'm allowed to vote.

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Vote away - but you'll have to replace 11 dimensional M-theory and or supergravity and or string theory and qunatum physics with something else. Alternate dimensions are as sensible as negative numbers.

Too the understanding is that God pre-dates the Univrese - hence is outside of the circle of spacetime

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But I disagree that God predates the universe. As for those other theories, I don't need to replace any of them, because I never understood any of them. Smile

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A very interesting topic g__day!

There is actually a book called "Show me God" (cited below) that examines this very topic.

The one theory that stuck with me after reading the book was the causality of the universe.

The author explained that every action has a reaction and that theoretically we should be able trace every action back to one single action (the big bang) but again every action must have had a cause so..what caused the big bang if it was essentially the first action in the universe ?

"You don't need a God to throw the switch or even guide creation once you understand how quantum physics or membrane theory allows for creation events from nothing." -g__day

Maybe quantum physics can explain this? but come on, energy is neither created or destroyed right ?

the book is:
Heeren, Fred (1998). Show me god: What the message from space is telling us about god. Wonders (Vol. 1) Ill: Day Star Publications

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Some random ponderings here:

God will not do anything to take away our free will. If anything about this world, or the universe, made it undeniably apparent that God existed, then you would no longer have the free will to deny that He exists.

Is it possible there is something necessary about an immense universe that would be needed to provide alternate explanations for our existence, apart from a Creator?

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At a quantum level energy can be created and destoyed - you see the highest rule turns out to be Heinsberg's uncertainity principle. It has some weird side effects such as empty space isn't empty. Quantum particles and anit-particles form and annihilate each other in moments as short as 10 ^ -35 of a second.

The Cassimir effect demonstrates this readily in a high vaccuum - where two metal plates attract each other because more virtual particles are forming on the outsides of the plates then the area between them - causing the plates to move together. The Vaccuum energy of space is huge when totalled, given the immensity of space.

Too if you have a quantum effect that creates as much positive mass/energy as negative mass/energy newton and einstein are happy!

Membranes predate the Universe, when two or more interact a new one could be form with its own unique dimensions and laws of physics and physical constants. For instance you might have a membrane with 5 dimensional time and no space dimensions.

The laws people quote are normally newtons of einsteins. They don't deal with quantum effects or membrane physics.

So the easiest way of form a universe is to simply manipulate two existing membranes and bring them into resonance to form a new unique membrane - say the one that defines our universe. Such an interaction would easily ignite a Big Bang.

Are membranes infinite - possible we have scant knowledge of them.

From a Faith perspective - I see free will is one of God's over-riding commitments. Free will must therefore work to constrain God's activities on Earth. If he does too much he encroaches on good or bad peoples free will.

So from a faith perspective - no idea if there is a plausible point of view saying why God might want such a huge universe.

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Hmm.. I'm going to have to goggle membranes...sounds very interesting.

Ok, so the membranes MIGHT explain the big bang. But what caused them to take action ?...what I'm trying to get at is an absolute begining of all action.

It is possible ?

Is the universe infinite or is there something beyond it ?

If there is something beyond it (as membranes before the big bang would suggest) then what ?

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Membranes just push the problem back one more level, and even with super colliders and the top minds in theoretical physics we simply don't have enough to speculate well or present models for consideration.

So membranes may be eternal or not - either way you have a was there an even more fundamental creations event - does time exist as a universal property bwteen and across membranes?

Put simply our most theoretical physics I have heard isn't advanced enough to even spectulate on this yet.

Wait till we solve quantum gravity or loop quantum gravity and we may know more.

Persoanlly I see the Universe as one of God's laboratories. And I think free will and the non-determinism of this universe may prove to be some of the most powerful gifts God as given us.

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g_day I stopped in to welcome you to A2K and to encourage your posting. This is a wonderful subject & and I'm sure will get as heated as other topics along this line...

Welcome again I say Welcome g-day!

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The inflation of physical theories is the mark of our times. If there were only two theories when Einstein proposed Relativity, there are over a dozen currently on the market.

Each has a certain trademark peculiarity that distinguishes it from the others, and all have one thing in common : they contain things no one has ever seen.

Superstring theories have extra dimensions; twistor theory also has extra dimensions plus difficult topology(!); membrane theories all have 'unknowable' parallel universes; supergravity has it's own problems .. etc. Even 'established' theories like quantum electrodynamics have problems.

Now these are all theories. Negative energy is something that causes Einstein turn in grave - it does not make him calm.

The facts, which are really starting to pile up, are thrilling; and I believe none of the theories are flexible enough to keep up pace with the facts. The problem is that these theories, instead of giving good predictions, have even problems explaining what we already know. This is not good for a theory.
How can we trust such theories that even can't explain why the universe accelerates, to shed some light on the BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE!!

For God's sake!!! I think that modern physics has fallen into a trap. There are many partial solutions, a huge pile of experimental data, and very extravagant, uncompatible and shaky theories to explain it all. I believe that scientists looking back at our times in 100 years will be looking at an extravagant, but not too brilliant period.

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Thanks for the welcome folks! The other 20+ forums I visit are typically PC - 3d hardware and software sites like Beyond3d or atomicmpc.

On topic I would say a physics theory - especially out there High energy theoretical physics - are mankinds stabs to know what is going on. The models can be proved right or wrong, but they point us towards the truth of how things happened.

About all I have read by christians on this topic is you need time to form heavy elements and alot of large suns (well proto-suns actually, typicall 100s of times large than typical suns found today but with a life-span of only a billion years vs our smaller sun's likely 12 billion year lifespan). No large suns - no heavy element - no complex life forms. Sounds possible - but surely than a galaxy of a thousand million or billion suns would be ample. The are literally so many galaxies out there trillions upon trillions upon trillions that in no way interact with us (inertia?) why or how are they part of God's plan?

I am sure God isn't completely random. That the rest of the Galaxies are required to balance out some part of his plan involving us.

Does he want mankind to advance technologically to the point where we can star-trek around his creation? If so why - what would that teach us that couldn't be gifted alot faster divinely? Does God use us to understand more about unpredictability or learn about himself?

It just fascinates me wondering over the possibilites future generations will explore.

Persoanlly I have the (irrational) belief that God doesn't use 'magic' he uses super-science to get things done. So if we had a God like level of understanding of physics and the powersource and control mechanisms he has - then we could do stuff like him. A very large IF there Smile

But this ignores God's spiritual dimensions which are vast, and motivations which may dwarf our understanding.

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Fascinating ideas and dialogue. Welcome indeed g__day. !

An important central idea in modern physics is the absence of any invariant scale for measuring things large and small in the universe. These descriptors have meaning only relative to our own limited perceptions. The handful of physical constants we have determined provide scale measures only within certain domainsand applications (Planck length for example).

Why did God make the universe so large? What is large?

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truth
Relative, it's my guess that physicists 100 years from now will be describing our era as a Renaissance of Physics. Proliferation is a sign of verility/fertility, not an expression of disorganization and chaos.

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JL,

I can only agree that the current state may be a precursor to a really great physical breakthrough, because it seems like that's the only way out Smile

The idea of a 'theory market' scares me a bit - this should be a domain of logic and understanding, not 'try until you get it right'. Like Einstein - he got it right in the first try!

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about M theory. Its also known as mathturbation.

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For Christians - why is the Universe so big?

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