31
   

Does free will exist?

 
 
Ergo phil
 
  1  
Thu 20 May, 2010 09:19 am
@Diogenes phil,
A person is conditioned therefore free will does not exist. The exception would be to act not on one's will, but rather, on randomness. For example, instead of deciding on anything one would flip a coin and let chance decide for you. By giving up one's will and acting on randomness is the only free will because it is independent of personal conditioning.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Thu 20 May, 2010 09:21 am
@Ergo phil,
Ergo;166479 wrote:
A person is conditioned therefore free will does not exist. The exception would be to act not on one's will, but rather, on randomness. For example, instead of deciding on anything one would flip a coin and let chance decide for you. By giving up one's will and acting on randomness is the only free will because it is independent of personal conditioning.


Then how come that now that I am a lot older, and I am not forced to eat that nasty oatmeal for breakfast, and can eat Froot Loups of my own free will, I feel so much happier?
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Thu 20 May, 2010 02:41 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Imo normal people does not have any free will at all, they are ruled by emotions, specially group think which are heavily based on ethics, morals and laws.

Psycotic people on the other hand has a free will, but may hide it to wisely avoid trouble.

Utterly psycotics may have lost all morals, ethics and lawful understanding, thus fully do whatever they wants to do.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:10 pm
@HexHammer,
What I am hoping to do here is demonstrate in principle how, in any physical system, free will cannot exist.

If we use the analogue of a simple physical system such as a domino rally, this is where lots of dominoes are placed on a horizontal surface in a particular configuration. If you are the person who places all of the dominoes and you know the extct starting position you should, in principle be able to predict the exact behaviour of the dominoes at any point in the future if you know which dominoes are pushed over and in what direction at the beginning. In other words, you could predict the entire lifetime of that domino rally in terms of which dominoes fell over in what direction and at what point in time (notwithstanding external variables such as wind etc).

The universe is a physical system. Fundamentally at the very smallest level, each and every physical entity is analogous to those dominoes. If you had a god's eye perspective and you knew the exact position, trajectory and velocoty of each and every physical entity at the very beginning of this physical system known as our universe then you could, in principle, predict the precise position, trajectory and velocity of each and every physical entity up to the very end of the universe, if indeeed it even has an end. In that sense, the entire future history of the universe was completely written into its physical starting condition. Thus, eveything in the universe (including human cognition) is merely acting out the lines of a script that was written in to the fabric of physical existence of everything there is at the very beginning. In other words, there aint no room for such a thing as free-will in a physical system

Now, some people cite quantum theory as a kind of opt-out clause when it comes to free-will. However, what a lot of folks don't realise is that quantum theory is cold comfort indeed. Put simply, all that it states is that the neat and predictable cause and effect of a classical universe be replaced with the messy and random cause and effect of a quantum universe. There is still no escape from the physical process of cause and effect. Except, with a quantum universe, its not even predictable! To use the domino rally analogy, it would be akin to dominoes randomly popping into existence while the rally was under way. Whenever a new domino popped into existence, it would merely cause a re-write of the future, classical cause-and-effect history of the rally from that point.

I suppose a quantum explanation of the universe is more akin to a religious one in the sense that initial causes come about in ways that have no direct physical antecedents within the universe. Except that the quantum god is blind and unknowing whereas a religious god is all seeing and all knowing.

Whichever way you look at it, if the laws of physics as we understand them are correct, free will simply cannot exist.

But, then, given that am a part of this physical system we call the universe, I would say that wouldn't I......
ughaibu
 
  1  
Thu 3 Jun, 2010 07:40 pm
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;172618 wrote:
If you are the person who places all of the dominoes and you know the extct starting position you should, in principle be able to predict the exact behaviour of the dominoes at any point in the future if you know which dominoes are pushed over and in what direction at the beginning.
All this amounts to is that given adequate information an agent can make an adequate prediction. As this is a requirement for free will, it isn't an argument against the same.
stevecook172001;172618 wrote:
If you had a god's eye perspective and you knew the exact position, trajectory and velocoty of each and every physical entity at the very beginning of this physical system known as our universe then you could, in principle, predict the precise position, trajectory and velocity of each and every physical entity up to the very end of the universe, if indeeed it even has an end.
You are now talking about determinism, whereas your analogy appealed to cause and effect. For your analogy to succeed, you'll also need a god's finger to push the first domino.
Other problems:
1) you haven't justified the assumption that the world had a beginning
2) you haven't justified the assumption that the world has an exact state
3) you haven't justified the assumption that the world is finite
4) Solomonoff has proved that exact predictions are uncomputable
5) you have overlooked the problem of mathematical randomness
6) you have overlooked irreversibility, and the rest of the reasons to reject determinism.
stevecook172001;172618 wrote:
To use the domino rally analogy, it would be akin to dominoes randomly popping into existence while the rally was under way. Whenever a new domino popped into existence, it would merely cause a re-write of the future, classical cause-and-effect history of the rally from that point.
You are confusing two notions of randomness and you're confusing cause and effect with determinism.
stevecook172001;172618 wrote:
if the laws of physics as we understand them are correct, free will simply cannot exist.
If the laws of physics are correct, then determinism is false. It is a theorem that if scientists have the freedom to perform experiments, then libertarian free will is the case.
Generally: your argument is well known and has the form:
1) if determinism is true, then free will is false
2) if determinism is false, then free will is false
3) therefore free will is false.
The argument relies on two equivocations; premise 1 appeals to determinism but premise 2 appeals to cause and effect, and the hidden premises about randomness appeal to both intentional randomness and mathematical randomness.
1) in a determined world, there is no mathematical randomness
2) free will requires mathematical randomness
3) therefore, in a determined world there is no free will
4) in a world without cause and effect, there is only intentional randomness
5) in a world with only intentional randomness, there is no free will
6) therefore, in a world without cause and effect, there is no free will.
However:
7) in a non-determined world with cause and effect, there is mathematical randomness but not only intentional randomness
8) therefore, in a non-determined world with cause and effect, there is no objection (in your argument) to free will
9) as we live in a world which appears to:
a) be non-determined
b) include mathematical randomness
c) include causally effective agents
d) allow demonstrations of free will,
your argument fails as an objection to free will.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:19 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;172761 wrote:
All this amounts to is that given adequate information an agent can make an adequate prediction. As this is a requirement for free will, it isn't an argument against the same.


Why is a capacity to make adequate predictions a requirement for free will?

Quote:
You are now talking about determinism, whereas your analogy appealed to cause and effect. For your analogy to succeed, you'll also need a god's finger to push the first domino.


Why will you need a God's finger to push the first domino? In order to predict outcomes you merely need a god's eye. And, if all all effects can be predicted by reference to all causes then that is a definition of physical determinism is it not?

Quote:
Other problems:
1) you haven't justified the assumption that the world had a beginning


I don't attempt to justify it. I merely indicate that that this is the currently prevailing scientific view

Quote:
2) you haven't justified the assumption that the world has an exact state


I don't attempt to justify it. I merely indicate that according to the currently prevailing scientific views, from a classical perspective, an exact state is, in principle, predictable at any given moment and that from a quantum perspective an exact state is, in principle, not predictable at any given moment

Quote:
3) you haven't justified the assumption that the world is finite


I don't attempt to justify the assumption that the world is finite. I merely indicate the currently prevailing scientific view is of of a finite but boundless condition of the universe.

Quote:
4) Solomonoff has proved that exact predictions are uncomputable


I have already stated that quantum theory makes exact predictions impossible. However this does not remove free will from the determining process of cause and effect. it merely makes such determinism unpredictable as the causes are randomly ever changing

Quote:
5) you have overlooked the problem of mathematical randomness


Define mathematical randomness. In what way have I overlooked this problem?

Quote:
6) you have overlooked irreversibility, and the rest of the reasons to reject determinism.You are confusing two notions of randomness and you're confusing cause and effect with determinism.If the laws of physics are correct, then determinism is false. It is a theorem that if scientists have the freedom to perform experiments, then libertarian free will is the case.


What do you mean by irreversibility? In what way have I overlooked it? What are the "rest of the reasons" you allude to? What are the the two notions of randomness I am apparently confusing? In what way am I confusing cause and effect with determinism? You cite the reason that determinism is false as being that the laws of physics are arrived at by the libertarian actions of scientists conducting experiments However, this assertion proves nothing since all actions in a determined physical system will be just that..determined. The actions of scientists no more or less than any other physical entities in that system.

Quote:
Generally: your argument is well known and has the form:
1) if determinism is true, then free will is false


This I can understand and agree with.

Quote:
2) if determinism is false, then free will is false


This I cannot understand and require an explanation

Quote:
3) therefore free will is false.


This is an extension of (2) and so also requires explanation

Quote:
The argument relies on two equivocations; premise 1 appeals to determinism but premise 2 appeals to cause and effect, and the hidden premises about randomness appeal to both intentional randomness and mathematical randomness.


I am unsure what your referencing system is here, though I am sure it is very clever. However, from what I can gather you appear to be separating cause and effect from determinism. My understanding is that for determinism to be the case, cause and effect are a prerequisite. However, such cause and effect may or may not be amenable to predictability and this depends on the nature of the cause. If it is random in nature, the effects that follow from it will be predictable only once that cause exists and that this is the very issue with a quantum explanation of the world in that it makes precise prediction impossible. Nevertheless, it does not allow escape from the classically determined effects of such causes

Quote:
1) in a determined world, there is no mathematical randomness


I have no idea what this means and so require explanation

Quote:
2) free will requires mathematical randomness


Why does free will require mathematical randomness?

Quote:
3) therefore, in a determined world there is no free will


I can understand this and agree. you appear to be repeating your previous point here.

Quote:
4) in a world without cause and effect, there is only intentional randomness


You're going to need to explain what you mean by "intentional randomness"

Quote:
5) in a world with only intentional randomness, there is no free will


See (4)

Quote:
6) therefore, in a world without cause and effect, there is no free will.


See (4) and (5)

Quote:
However:
7) in a non-determined world with cause and effect, there is mathematical randomness but not only intentional randomness


See (4), (5) and (6)

Quote:
8) therefore, in a non-determined world with cause and effect, there is no objection (in your argument) to free will


See (4), (5), (6) and (7)

Quote:
9) as we live in a world which appears to:
a) be non-determined
b) include mathematical randomness
c) include causally effective agents
d) allow demonstrations of free will,
your argument fails as an objection to free will.


See (4), (5), (6), (7) and (8)
ughaibu
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:16 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;172865 wrote:
I merely indicate that according to the currently prevailing scientific views, from a classical perspective, an exact state is, in principle, predictable
You're incorrect, the n-body problem is intractable.
stevecook172001;172865 wrote:
My understanding is that for determinism to be the case, cause and effect are a prerequisite.
Cause and effect is incompatible with determinism for at least two reasons:
1) determinism is irreducibly global, cause and effect is irreducibly local
2) cause and effect are time asymmetric, determinism is time symmetric.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:25 am
@ughaibu,
I note you have failed to provide any answers at all for the majority of my questions. This, I am bound to say, indicates that you are less interested in an intellectually honest debate and more interested in servicing your own psychological needs. Nevertheless, on the basis I may be incorrect....
ughaibu;172887 wrote:
You're incorrect, the n-body problem is intractable.Cause and effect is incompatible with determinism for at least two reasons:
1) determinism is irreducibly global, cause and effect is irreducibly local
2) cause and effect are time asymmetric, determinism is time symmetric.

What is the "n-body" problem and why is it intractable?

Why is determinism irreducibly global?

Why is cause and effect irreducibly local?

Why is cause and effect time asymmetric?

Why is determinism time symmetric?

Answers to the rest of the questions put to you in my previous post would also be appreciated
ughaibu
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:39 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;172888 wrote:
I note you have failed to provide any answers at all for the majority of my questions. This, I am bound to say, indicates that you are less interested in an intellectually honest debate and more interested in servicing your own psychological needs.
What it indicates is that you asked more questions than I can be bothered answering. You're mistaken about the claims of both scientists and philosophers, and there's no point trying to talk about any of the rest until you have the basics.
stevecook172001;172888 wrote:
What is the "n-body" problem and why is it intractable?

Why is determinism irreducibly global?

Why is cause and effect irreducibly local?

Why is cause and effect time asymmetric?

Why is determinism time symmetric?

Answers to the rest of the questions put to you in my previous post would also be appreciated
I'm not your private tutor, use Google.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:48 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;172893 wrote:
What it indicates is that you asked more questions than I can be bothered answering. You're mistaken about the claims of both scientists and philosophers, and there's no point trying to talk about any of the rest until you have the basics.I'm not your private tutor, use Google.


You make the assertion that I am mistaken about the claims of both scientists and philosophers.

I am willing to defend my assertions about the claims of scientists since the assertions I have made are rather modest.

I have made no assertion whatsoever about the claims of philosophers. You've just made that up, basically.

If you consider there is no point in trying to explain your position, then why do you even bother to assert it?

Or is it, perhaps, that you have read only enough to string together a number of philosophical concepts in a sentence sufficient to superficially pass for intelligent understanding of those concepts. However, when pressed for clarification of them, you are reduced to obfuscation and ad-hominim rhetoric.

In other words, you either know what you are talking but do not with to share your knowledge in which case it is entirely illogical for you to engage in discussion forums such as this. Or you don't know what you are talking about, in which case you have other, covert psychological reasons/needs for being here.

As I said, your posts clearly indicate a desire to service your own psychological needs and have little if anything to do with the topic under discussion.

Which is a shame.

I take it you are one or more of the following:

male/young/socially inept/don't get out much?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:53 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;172894 wrote:
I have made no assertion whatsoever about the claims of philosophers.
Determinism is a philosophical position.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:04 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;172906 wrote:
Determinism is a philosophical position.

Indeed it is. and the position, including it's definition, I have outlined is entirely mine. I have made no claim whatsoever that it is the position of any philosopher.

I also note that you have not addressed the illogicality of your posts on here as outlined in my immediately previous post.

Just in case you didn't manage to read my previous post fully....

Quote:
You make the assertion that I am mistaken about the claims of both scientists and philosophers.

I am willing to defend my assertions about the claims of scientists since the assertions I have made are rather modest.

I have made no assertion whatsoever about the claims of philosophers. You've just made that up, basically.

If you consider there is no point in trying to explain your position, then why do you even bother to assert it?

Or is it, perhaps, that you have read only enough to string together a number of philosophical concepts in a sentence sufficient to superficially pass for intelligent understanding of those concepts. However, when pressed for clarification of them, you are reduced to obfuscation and ad-hominim rhetoric.

In other words, you either know what you are talking but do not with to share your knowledge in which case it is entirely illogical for you to engage in discussion forums such as this. Or you don't know what you are talking about, in which case you have other, covert psychological reasons/needs for being here.

As I said, your posts clearly indicate a desire to service your own psychological needs and have little if anything to do with the topic under discussion.

Which is a shame.

I take it you are one or more of the following:

male/young/socially inept/don't get out much?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:12 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;172909 wrote:
Indeed it is. and the position, including it's definition, I have outlined is entirely mine.
Okay, you seem to be talking about cause and effect, not what philosophers mean by determinism, and not anything which conflicts with free will.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:16 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;172913 wrote:
Okay, you seem to be talking about cause and effect, not what philosophers mean by determinism, and not anything which conflicts with free will.

I think we have probably learned as much about each other's positions and reasons for being here as we need to......
davidm
 
  0  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 07:17 am
@stevecook172001,
I recommend this discussion.
stevecook172001
 
  0  
Fri 4 Jun, 2010 07:21 am
@davidm,
davidm;172941 wrote:
I recommend this discussion.

Brilliant. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
permoda12345
 
  0  
Wed 12 Jan, 2011 03:17 am
@kennethamy,
yes it does but free will cannot go on endlessly there should be kind of rules that stop them .
0 Replies
 
G H
 
  1  
Thu 13 Jan, 2011 04:03 pm
@Diogenes phil,
To free will or not to free will, eh?

Just what external agents or agencies would be making "Joe Average" into a heteronomic puppet 100% of the time, so that no decision he ever makes or engages in is ever accomplished by processes within his own bodily system (which would include any inherited genetic programming as also being part of that body)? Who are we to suppose Joe's perpetually vigilant remote-controllers to be? Are they Dr. Evil, gods and satans, conspiring reptilian ETs, etc.?

Or is Joe Average so important an entity in the universe that the forces of physics and the regularities of nature on a global basis had to become his personal puppeteers to insure he achieved some set of goals or fate they had determined for him? Rather than the lowlier status and less fantastic alternative of these lawful-like habits and physical properties -- in the course of much cosmic/biological evolution and species reproduction -- only converging locally to become this very bodily system itself called "Joe Average", which can yield its own decisions in the course of its survival from its own internal biochemical and neural interactions.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Thu 19 Feb, 2015 04:23 pm
@Diogenes phil,
I do not know if free will exist or not. I was trying to read this post but the bulk of the post deteriorated, almost comically, as everyone was trying arguing for their definition of determinism.

So let me ask these series of questions. Does free will require a conscious awareness of the choices? If so, when do we become conscious of these choices and our decisions to make these choices?

Neuroscience makes claims that many of our decisions are made before we are conscious of them, and there is a basis for this thinking.
understanding our Central Nervous system may lead to some answers.

E.G." The spinal cord relays information up to the brain through spinal tracts through the "final common pathway"[8] to the thalamus and ultimately to the cortex. Not all information is relayed to the cortex, and does not reach our immediate consciousness, but is instead transmitted only to the thalamus which sorts and adapts accordingly. This in turn may explain why we are not constantly aware of all aspects of our surroundings"

taken from wikipedia

Then their is our DNA...If my tastes are predetermined what then is meant by "Acquired Taste" ?


Then their is Jean Paul Sartre definition of free will, though I can't agree with calling it free will. I think it has some validity and merit.
He posit that we must choose, with no choice but to choose. Definitely, an odd thing to call free will,

But that was a time before we had a greater understanding of DNA and before the birth of neuroscience.

Danial Dennett believes in a compatible determination. I'm still not sure how that works or resembles any definition of free will.

Perhaps it is like in sports a,

Restricted free agent which sounds a lot like an oxymoron. I mean if he is free to sign with a different team why are there conditions?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 19 Feb, 2015 05:05 pm
If there were no free will, we could save a lot of money on jails . . . . .
 

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