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No Hope For Universal Health Care

 
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 05:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
... I prefer the imperfections of a universal health care system.


And a pony!
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 05:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yeah, everybody feels badly for those "poor" doctors.


Salary of a Doctor
The Physics Factbook™
Edited by Glenn Elert -- Written by his students
An educational, Fair Use website


Bibliographic Entry Result
(w/surrounding text) Standardized
Result
Antell, Gerson, & Harris, Walters. Economics: Institutions and Analysis, Third Edition. New York: Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2001:182. "Table 8.2
Median Weekly Earnings, 1999
Physicians $1,266" $65,832

Physicians and Surgeons. Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2003. Table 1. Total compensation of Physicians by Specialty; 2002
Anesthesiology $306,964
Surgery, general $255,438
Obstetrics/Gynecology $233,061
Internal medicine $155,530
Pediatrics/Adolescent medicine $152,690
Psychiatry $163,144
Family Practice $150,267
$150,267 - $306,964


"AMA: Doctors' income still rising." Managed Care. (June 1998). "The American Medical Association' annual physician income survey shows that, an average, doctors are making close to $200,000 a year." $200,000

Terkell, Studs. Hard Times. New York: Pantheon Books, 1970: 80. "I just came across a bankbook that I had between 1931-1934, and, by God, I was in those days making $2,000 a month." $24,000

Enzmann, Dieter R.Surviving in Health Care. St. Louis, Missouri: Mosby-Year Book., 1997: 98. "Perhaps because of persistent high salaries ($186,000 average physician compensation in 1994) there is little public sympathy for the physician's current plight." $186,000


The WSJ this past week had a good article about a family practice doctor up in a poor part of Michigan. This guy averaged about $150,000 per year, working a 60 hour week and see mainly patients on medicaid and medicare. This man also had a large family to support.

Based on his overhead for running his practice, he has often had to cancel his own salary to make ends meet, so that the poor in his town ( Berien Springs?) could receive medical care.

He stated that he was a "spiritual man" and not a business man. I say he was God's gift to the poor and elderly in his practice area and I also say, that he's not over paid by any means.

I'm going to try and find that aritcle, and I 'll post it, if I can.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 06:07 pm
Here is the relevant section, from WSJ 7/2007:

Quote:
In Benton Harbor, more than 300 patients lost access to counseling services after the main provider of Medicaid mental-health services, Riverwood Center, stopped accepting payments from Medicaid HMOs. Riverwood says the reimbursements it was receiving from the Medicaid HMOs for outpatient sessions didn't cover their costs.

Payment delays and other administrative hassles compounded the crunch, says Riverwood's president, Allen Edlefson. The center lost $350,000 in 2003, the year before it decided to quit its Medicaid HMO contracts. "It was a painful decision, but we just couldn't make it work financially," he says.

The Medicaid HMOs helped slow costs by more tightly managing care, such as reducing hospital admissions and assuring that recipients are at least assigned a primary-care doctor. The state estimates HMOs have saved Medicaid more than $300 million annually in recent years.

Nestled along Lake Michigan's southeastern shore, Benton Harbor has been hard hit by job losses. Manufacturers have steadily cut or relocated elsewhere good-paying union jobs with health benefits. About a quarter of the community of 12,000, poor and predominantly black, are unemployed.

As the city's middle class dwindled, most doctors, along with the hospital, relocated in the late 1980s and early 1990s across the St. Joseph River to its much more affluent twin, St. Joseph, a picturesque lake-resort town. Most of those doctors are listed in HMO networks but many don't accept Medicaid patients in their offices. Instead, many spend an afternoon every one or two weeks seeing Medicaid patients at a clinic set up in a building that once housed Benton Harbor's hospital.
[Don Tynes]

The doctors say they prefer the arrangement because the clinic -- which is run by the St. Joseph hospital -- pays them a flat rate for the afternoon, instead of Medicaid fees for each service. They don't have to worry about the administrative hassle of filing claims or no-show patients -- a common problem since many Medicaid recipients don't have ready transportation. But for patients, this can mean waiting months for an appointment.

The specialist crunch means that more of the burden is falling on primary-care physicians such as Don Tynes. Dr. Tynes runs one of the few primary-care practices left in Benton Harbor. Three years ago, he left his job as a salaried physician in a local community health center to set up his own practice in a former dry-cleaning shop across from Benton Harbor high school.

"I don't want to pull any punches taking care of people," says Dr. Tynes. "I'm a spiritual man, not a businessman." In his waiting room, gospel movies play round the clock on a DVD player and patients can sign up for his weight-loss coaching.

On a recent day, 22 out of the 37 patients were on Medicaid, and another 12 had Medicare or other government-sponsored insurance. Only three had commercial health coverage. Dr. Tynes tries to make ends meet with a bare-bones staff. He has also cultivated a loyal patient base by offering specialty services such as sexual-dysfunction treatment and marriage counseling. Depending on how good business is, he tries to pay himself an after-tax salary of $500 to $750 a week to support his family of five children.

But three times so far this year, he's forgone his biweekly paycheck to keep the practice out of the red. Last year, he cut his office staff from seven to four people. "We [primary-care physicians] are the ones keeping this Medicaid system together, but we're the ones getting killed," he says.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 07:06 pm
Some people have two or three jobs (working 60 hours), and can't make $50,000/year. Some have big families too!

So, what's your point?
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 10:19 pm
Can I make the blind see?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 10:43 pm
Just got off the phone with an older brother who was released from hospital 24 hours ago after several days in intensive care, then general care. He said his care, from arrival in emergency to release, was superb. His condition was pneumonia.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 10:47 pm
Miller wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
... I prefer the imperfections of a universal health care system.


Does california have Univeral Health Care? I thought
we were unique in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for having this type of health coverage.

So tell us, CI, based on your experiences with Universal Health Care, as an enrollee in such a plan,
what did you like about your coverage?


Why don't you ask those who live universal healthcare ... and accept their experience?

You don't have any experience either.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 10:53 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:


You don't have any experience either.


I live in the CommonWealth of Massachusetts, the first and the only State in the United States of American to require Universal Health Care coverage for all residents of the State.

Do you or CI live in Massachusetts?

Do you know and understand the rules and regulations surrounding this legislation?

If none of the above, than you lack my experience and knowledge in the field of Universal Health Care regulation and coverage.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 11:02 pm
Miller wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:


You don't have any experience either.


I live in the CommonWealth of Massachusetts, the first and the only State in the United States of American to require Universal Health Care coverage for all residents of the State.

Do you or CI live in Massachusetts?

Do you know and understand the rules and regulations surrounding this legislation?

If none of the above, than you lack my experience and knowledge in the field of Universal Health Care regulation and coverage.



Well, that's interesting.

How lon does the Commonwealth of Massachusetts have this "universal healthcare"?


Why, do you think, it's general thought to be "nearly a universal healthcare"?


No, I don't live there.

Yes, I'ce read the legislation.

No, I don't understand why you call it universal healthcare - compared with those systems which generally are called such.

As said quite often here: I live in a country with a universal healthcare since 1883.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 06:06 am
I'm happy for you.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 06:53 am
Thank you.


Thoufgh I don't get how it answers my question(s). Never mind...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 09:46 am
miller wrote
Quote:
If none of the above, than you lack my experience and knowledge in the field of Universal Health Care regulation and coverage.


Sure. Using the same argument, you are without the experience and knowledge of all the Brits, Germans, French, Canadians, Belgians, etc etc who contribute to this board.

And given that your experience is so singular and of comparitively much shorter duration, how do you think we ought to weigh it in relationship to so much other information and experience?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:21 am
Well, Blatham, obviously that doesn't count.

I frankly admit that my university degree in health security (got it with my MA in social work) isn't worth a lot nowadays since I'm not up-to-date like someone who's ´working with those regulations, by-laws and laws on a daily basis like the employees in the funds' offices (who certainly have a better, specialised knowledge as well).

However, I do understand that a near-universal access to health insurance for most adults (se the official stae's website of the Commonwealth Corrector is still far away from any European national health system.

But obviously those short time Miller has experienced this make her a specialist.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:25 am
Miller reminds me a whole lot of Bush; stubborn and ignorant.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:28 am
walter

Well, I suppose she can regard herself as a "specialist" in that same manner that my Uncle Irving was a specialist as regards the boils on his own ass.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:46 am
My impression is that Miller is a practicing physician. I believe that gives her a perspective that we should consider as both interesting and well-informed. Moreover in that capacity I suggest that even a year's experience in Massachusetts is worth several years of our experiences as consumers of health care.

I also recognize the greater experience of Walter, Blatham and others here who have lived for long periods under government-managed systems. They, in turn, should recognize that their knowledge of our system is (except perhaps for Blatham) generally confined to what they read - and it includes a good deal of propaganda.

This is a very complex subject, and I doubt that anyone's knowledge here is sufficient to give them moral or any other kind of authority over the others. Instead we are comparing our different understanding of a subject none of us understands fully. For example: I have a fairly large number of geologists (most without graduate degrees) working for me who make a good deal more than what Cicerone listed above for Internists. Are Doctors in the U.S. overpaid? I don't know: I suspect some likely are, but I don't really know the comparative picture. Are Doctors in the UK underpaid, requiring them to recruit from other less developed countries and thereby depriving others with fewer economic advantages of medical care? I don't really know the answer to that one either, though the reporting of the incidents in Glasgow gave me that impression.

I think we would all do well to relax a bit and instead of rebukes and polemics try to compare information and better understand both each other and the subject.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:01 am
I'm not sure how one doctor's experience speaks for all doctors - or even a small minority of them. It's similar to other professions where one individual does not represent the whole. Not only do they work in different specialties, earn different incomes, but they also work in different environments. Even HMOs like Kaiser have different performance ratings from one hospital to the next - even within California.

Just because my brother is a physician, two nieces and two nephews are also physicians, it doesn't mean their experiences or outlook of medical care in the US are the same.

I must evaluate what an individual says to determine whether I agree or disagree with their opinions about universal health care. It doesn't matter whether they are a physician or not; it's about providing health care for all of our children irregardless of ability to pay. For me, that's the bottom line.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:16 am
georgeob1 wrote:
My impression is that Miller is a practicing physician.


That's not quite what she told here she is.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:20 am
georgeob1 wrote:

I also recognize the greater experience of Walter, Blatham and others here who have lived for long periods under government-managed systems. They, in turn, should recognize that their knowledge of our system is (except perhaps for Blatham) generally confined to what they read - and it includes a good deal of propaganda.


Miller, the US-expert, says (and I have only my aove quoted restrictions) that Massachusetts is the only US state with universal healthcare.
And it's neither working there for a long time nor do a lot of people have intensive knowledge about that - you may get an idea when you look at the various sites.

(And I would call that propaganda: mostly the sites refer to official Commonwealth sources.)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:25 am
Well, I have been wrong before.

Anyway I'm off to the Russian River for a few days of relaxation with good food, wine and music with a bunch of friends under the old redwoods.
0 Replies
 
 

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