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Conscience or superego?

 
 
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 10:58 am
Innate or learned?

How do we come to have moral sense?

Can we change it?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 6,860 • Replies: 124
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 10:09 pm
Part of both; it's our genes and the environment. We can't completely change it, but we are able to modify it to some extent. The environmental forces such as our family, friends, and school will probably have the most influence.
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NickFun
 
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Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 10:13 pm
I think moral sense is innate in most creatures. We have a somewhat inherent understanding of what is going to cause ourselves and others pain. It's called empathy. I don't think we should try to change it but bring out more of it.
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IFeelFree
 
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Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 11:35 pm
Morality is a recognition of our interconnectedness. Evil arises from the delusion of separateness.
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echi
 
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Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 12:46 am
I think conscience is innate. The brain naturally makes connections and thus, empathy. I think it is the great, Karmic equalizer. No one escapes.


(cool thread, neo. what do you say about it?)
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neologist
 
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Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 05:17 am
I started this thread because I was getting pummeled so badly over here:

http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=98653

I'm hoping the thoughts of others will help me either refine or redefine my rhetorical approach.
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 05:53 am
I believe we are swayed considerably by environmental facters, but, at least in my case, my core sense of morality was always the same, as far back as I recall. I may have strayed, temporarily, but always came back within the boundary.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 09:47 am
edgar, I think I've had a similar experience as you; I've always known that the christian church we attended was teaching discrimination and hatred of other christian churches, and even saw some students at a parochial school tease a girl student who was once a catholic. I knew in my heart of hearts that it was wrong, and never trusted the church's teachings unlike all my siblings who are Christians today.
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neologist
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 09:29 am
edgarblythe wrote:
I believe we are swayed considerably by environmental facters, but, at least in my case, my core sense of morality was always the same, as far back as I recall. I may have strayed, temporarily, but always came back within the boundary.
Any ideas about the origin of the 'core sense of morality'?
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IFeelFree
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 02:01 pm
neologist wrote:
Any ideas about the origin of the 'core sense of morality'?

I think it is a recognition of our interconnectedness. Some part of us knows that when we harm another person, we're really harming ourselves. We induce subconscious guilt in ourselves, and suffer as a result.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 02:14 pm
IFF, That's the reason so many soldiers come back with posttraumatic stress disorder, a mental illness that strikes more than a third of the soldiers exposed to war.
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mesquite
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 02:46 pm
neologist wrote:
[Any ideas about the origin of the 'core sense of morality'?


It has the same origin as the species.
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IFeelFree
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 03:28 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
IFF, That's the reason so many soldiers come back with posttraumatic stress disorder, a mental illness that strikes more than a third of the soldiers exposed to war.

I don't doubt it. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier, I imagine. There are moral arguments for killing during wartime. (What if we had not stood up to Hitler's forces?) However, perhaps not everyone is psychologically equipped to handle it.
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Coolwhip
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 04:05 pm
What are the evolutionary advantages to the conscience? It's a fundamental ingredient in civilized society. Without any conscience we would only fend for ourselves and not worry about the group as a whole.

Sociopaths lack empathy (as well as some other crucial traits), but they can manage fine in our modern society. Some even shoot straight to the top, with many other people being sacrificed along the way. But if no one had any empathy or any for of conscience, our entire society would fall apart.

One might say the conscience is part of the ego, the survival instinct. Without our group we would not survive.

I am, of course, oversimplifying a lot.
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neologist
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 04:30 pm
Modern psychology, correct me if I am wrong, ascribes the development of superego almost exclusively to the internalization of standards from one's parents, and gives little credence to the idea of genetic memory.

If that were true, would it not allow for considerably more variation in what is considered ethical?

Take the nurturing of children for example . . .
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Coolwhip
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 05:06 pm
But than again psychology deals with the individual, not the group. I very much doubt that modern psychology has an answer for where and when empathy first came to be.
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IFeelFree
 
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Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 05:10 pm
Coolwhip wrote:
What are the evolutionary advantages to the conscience? It's a fundamental ingredient in civilized society. Without any conscience we would only fend for ourselves and not worry about the group as a whole.

Sociopaths lack empathy (as well as some other crucial traits), but they can manage fine in our modern society. Some even shoot straight to the top, with many other people being sacrificed along the way. But if no one had any empathy or any for of conscience, our entire society would fall apart.

One might say the conscience is part of the ego, the survival instinct. Without our group we would not survive.

I am, of course, oversimplifying a lot.

There are instances when some lack of conscience has "evolutionary advantages". For example, slavery was once considered allowable in society. It gave slave owners an economic advantage over those who paid others a fair wage to do work for them. Its been claimed that the main reason we shun the idea of slavery today is that we have machines and cheap fossil fuels to do most of the grunt work of civilization. (Not completely. We still hire illegal aliens to pick fruits and vegetables at subsistence wages.) I'd like to think that humanity has evolved spiritually a little. Most people today probably wouldn't support the idea of slavery, or invading other countries take their land and resources (although many governments wouldn't think twice about it.)
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 08:43 am
Morality can't be innate. If it were, there would presumably be no variations in ethical beliefs across cultures, whereas we know for a fact that there are significant differences. And no one yet has discovered a "morality gene" in humans.

That is not to say, however, that morality cannot be objective.
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Coolwhip
 
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Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 09:53 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Morality can't be innate. If it were, there would presumably be no variations in ethical beliefs across cultures, whereas we know for a fact that there are significant differences. And no one yet has discovered a "morality gene" in humans.

That is not to say, however, that morality cannot be objective.


Well, the "happy" gene is also yet to be discovered. Lack of knowledge proves nothing.

What I am talking about is the ability to acquire a sense of moral and/or conscience. Moral is an innate behavior.

Wikipedia:
Quote:
Innate behaviour



Innate Behavior refers to the actions of an animal, or human, that aren't quite described in genes, but they are expressed without prior experience through watching another individual. They are the responses, to a stimulus, that are quickly figured out through an attempt. Since nerves and pathways in the brain are connected through certain regions, then a response which stimulates the area of the original stimulus (desire) through another body region or organ, will be remembered. The Innate behavior is the use of these connected areas to solve the stimulus response problem. Taste or smell can stimulate hunger. These areas are connected in that eating, causing tasting, together solve the hunger issue. Since just smelling a food causes more hunger, the next closest cause of hunger is probably the pathway to the fix.


A child would be severely socially handicapped if it grew up without it's parents. It needs to follow an example. A dog, however, does not have an innate conscience, and would not develop one no matter how hard you tried.

My point being that moral can be innate and still present itself with great variation from culture to culture.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 09:56 am
Coolwhip: A child would be severely socially handicapped if it grew up without it's parents. It needs to follow an example. A dog, however, does not have an innate conscience, and would not develop one no matter how hard you tried.

Wrong! A dog has been known to save a baby/tolder from danger or its owner from an burning house.
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