everything else does .....

IFeelFree wrote:

If you believe that when you're dead, you're dead, fine. Far be it from me to say otherwise.

IFeelFree wrote:

Normally, when the body dies, the etheric body soon dissolves after that and awareness of the physical world is lost. Consciousness withdraws into the astral body.

Inconsistency.

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If awareness of the physical world is lost; what's left? Our reality of necessity requires the physical world as its foundation.

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In a literal sense you can lose awareness of the physical world through the cessation of input from the five senses, you would have the living mind and it's memories and thus a reality of sorts can exist.

When (not if) intelligent machines become available this question will take on more meaning; as it is accident and war victims can suffer this fate.

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Exactly what is there without the physical world? Space is the opposite of the physical world, but even that is questionable.

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FWIW space is not a pure vacuum.

Without the physical world, there would not even be the requisites for a pure vacuum. It's amusing that many insist there is something beyond the physical world. I suggest that to say "beyond the physical world" is a contradiction in terms.

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Chumly: In a literal sense you can lose awareness of the physical world through the cessation of input from the five senses, you would have the living mind and it's memories and thus a reality of sorts can exist.

I just can't fathom the cessation of input from the five senses.

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See
Hear
Taste
Touch
Smell

I suspect (but do not know for sure) that there are people whom live this way in hositpals, it you want to call it living.

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You mean comatose?

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I am not sure if a comatose person can still have an active mind and be isolated from their body. There is a book / movie called "Johnny Got His Gun"

Quote:

A World War I-era American soldier in a hospital realizes that he was hit by an artillery shell and lost his arms, legs, ears, eyes and most of his face. The remaining torso and head is being kept alive by machines. Using his head to tap out Morse code, he asks someone to help him leave the hospital or die. Neither of his wishes is granted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun

It's conceivable this concept could be taken a bit further to fully exempt the senses, I would speculate that with modern EEG gear, doctors would be able to know if the patent had a least the appearance of consciousness.

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Wow, that's an extreme case - it seems to me, at least. His wish to die is understandable; I'd feel the same in his position. Absent any potential for "quality of life," it seems only the brain is "alive."

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Chumly wrote:

IFeelFree wrote:
If you believe that when you're dead, you're dead, fine. Far be it from me to say otherwise.
IFeelFree wrote:
Normally, when the body dies, the etheric body soon dissolves after that and awareness of the physical world is lost. Consciousness withdraws into the astral body.
Inconsistency.

Cicerone is entitle to his beliefs and I'm entitled to mine. I would not tell him he is wrong. However, I will state my beliefs when appropriate.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Chumly wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
If you believe that when you're dead, you're dead, fine. Far be it from me to say otherwise.
IFeelFree wrote:
Normally, when the body dies, the etheric body soon dissolves after that and awareness of the physical world is lost. Consciousness withdraws into the astral body.
Inconsistency.

Cicerone is entitle to his beliefs and I'm entitled to mine. I would not tell him he is wrong. However, I will state my beliefs when appropriate.

And that's the way it should be; state our beliefs. Only then can we understand why people have different ideas about life and death. After all, differences are universal, and that's not about to change any time soon.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

If awareness of the physical world is lost; what's left? Our reality of necessity requires the physical world as its foundation.

According to traditional mysticism, there are "subtle" planes or worlds to which consciousness withdraws when the physical body dies. Usually, awareness shifts to the astral plane, which is non-physical. The individual has an astral body which is similar to the physical body in appearance.

Anyway, that's one theory.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

And that's the way it should be; state our beliefs. Only then can we understand why people have different ideas about life and death. After all, differences are universal, and that's not about to change any time soon.

Well said.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Chumly wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
If you believe that when you're dead, you're dead, fine. Far be it from me to say otherwise.
IFeelFree wrote:
Normally, when the body dies, the etheric body soon dissolves after that and awareness of the physical world is lost. Consciousness withdraws into the astral body.
Inconsistency.
Cicerone is entitle to his beliefs and I'm entitled to mine. I would not tell him he is wrong. However, I will state my beliefs when appropriate.

It's not a simplistic comparison of equally merited beliefs, there is no automatic entitlement, you do contradict yourself as discussed.

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Chumly wrote:

It's not a simplistic comparison of equally merited beliefs, there is no automatic entitlement, you do contradict yourself as discussed.

How does one earn the "entitlement" to post his/her beliefs on this forum? Who determines the relative merit of each person's beliefs? Forums such as this are egalitarian. Anyone can post anything they want, provided it doesn't violate the forum rules. As for contradiction, that might be the case if you construe my comment "Far be it from me to say otherwise" to mean that I would not post my beliefs on this forum. It think it is obvious that I meant that I would not tell other people they are wrong if their beliefs are different from mine.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Chumly wrote:
It's not a simplistic comparison of equally merited beliefs, there is no automatic entitlement, you do contradict yourself as discussed.

How does one earn the "entitlement" to post his/her beliefs on this forum? Who determines the relative merit of each person's beliefs? Forums such as this are egalitarian. Anyone can post anything they want, provided it doesn't violate the forum rules. As for contradiction, that might be the case if you construe my comment "Far be it from me to say otherwise" to mean that I would not post my beliefs on this forum. It think it is obvious that I meant that I would not tell other people they are wrong if their beliefs are different from mine.

Chumly uses his own laugh meter. Of course, he set the parameters himself.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Chumly wrote:
It's not a simplistic comparison of equally merited beliefs, there is no automatic entitlement, you do contradict yourself as discussed.

How does one earn the "entitlement" to post his/her beliefs on this forum? Who determines the relative merit of each person's beliefs? Forums such as this are egalitarian. Anyone can post anything they want, provided it doesn't violate the forum rules. As for contradiction, that might be the case if you construe my comment "Far be it from me to say otherwise" to mean that I would not post my beliefs on this forum. It think it is obvious that I meant that I would not tell other people they are wrong if their beliefs are different from mine.

It's not a question of earning the "entitlement" to post beliefs on this forum it's the fact that some beliefs have much more of a factual basis than others thus by default there is more merit to factual based beliefs than to fantasy based beliefs. Your fantasy based belief "Consciousness withdraws into the astral body." has no automatic entitlement.

Entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits because of rights, or by agreement through law. It can also refer, in a more casual sense to someone's belief that he/she is deserving of some particular reward or benefit. Your fantasy based belief "Consciousness withdraws into the astral body." is not deserving of some particular reward or benefit.

As to who determines the relative merit of each person's beliefs let me ask you a simple question:

Which is more likely?
a) the dark side of the moon is made of Jell-O every 1000 years for 1 second
b) the local grocery store has navel oranges

everything else does .....

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