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Congress report: no link Al-Qaeda and Saddam regime re 9/11

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:52 pm
Evidently 57% of the American public is pretty darn dense, then... (Not that I'd argue.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:54 pm
LOL, well I can't argue with that. The right wing certainly has its fair share of nuts, so I can't very well say denseness is the exclusive domain of the left. Smile
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:00 pm
At least it's down from 70% when they (Bush et al) were really flogging this stuff:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

Interesting paragraph:

Quote:
Veteran pollsters say the persistent belief of a link between the attacks and Saddam could help explain why public support for the decision to go to war in Iraq has been so resilient despite problems establishing a peaceful country.


So, since there is no link...?
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 05:16 pm
post hoc ergo propter hoc?
post hoc ergo propter hoc

Definition:
The name in Latin means "after this therefore because of this".
This describes the fallacy. An author commits the fallacy when
it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the
one thing was caused by the other.

Examples:
(i) Immigration to Alberta from Ontario increased. Soon
after, the welfare rolls increased. Therefore, the increased
immigration caused the increased welfare rolls.
(ii) I took EZ-No-Cold, and two days later, my cold
disappeared.


Proof:
Show that the correlation is coincidental by showing that: (i)
the effect would have occurred even if the cause did not
occur, or (ii) that the effect was caused by something other
than the suggested cause.

References
(Cedarblom and Paulsen: 237, Copi and Cohen: 101)

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/posthoc.htm

because of a meeting between al quida and iraqi intelligence officials in the mid '90's the wtc was attacked? and gave us credence to attack iraq?

when the clinton administration found out about a bungled assassination attempt on george herbert walker bush while in kuwait city in june of 93, what did clinton do?

he bombed the main headquarter's building of the iraqi intlligence. after that, there was never any iraqi terrorism perpetrated upon the US

but back to "post hoc ergo propter hoc" a meeting of iraqi and al quida years prior to the 911 disaster is not sufficient evidence to declare that iraq was in cahoots with bin laden.

bush lied and should go to jail for it. he went to war by choice not necessity, and now we have nearly a thousand brave american soldiers dead and 6,000 wounded.

once bush is convicted of treason he should be hung from a sour apple tree and left for the buzzards to peck out his eyes.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 05:32 pm
howdy kuv...nice to see you as always.

If one posits that the administration statements weren't responsible for some 70% (previously, as soz points out) believing that Sadaam was complicit in 9-11, it does present the problem of explaining how so many came to believe that particular notion. But perhaps it was the liberal press which led their noses in that direction.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jul, 2004 06:48 pm
And after the 2003 Congress report and then recently, the 9/11 Commission report, there is now the Senate report, going through the same moves ...

(I'm sure this has already been covered in other threads today, but I like to keep these things together even if just for my own use.)

Its a long read, but then the baffling revelations about the hyping of Iraqi capablities do come in wave after wave:

Quote:
C.I.A. Warned White House That Links Between Iraq and Qaeda Were 'Murky'Citing Close-MindednessOverreaching Conclusions

Before the war, the intelligence community's major conclusions about Iraq's biological and chemical weapons programs far exceeded what could be drawn from available intelligence and overstated the judgments of intelligence analysts, the Senate committee concluded in its report on Friday.

The October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate stated that "Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons." But the Senate panel found that conclusion "overstated both what was known and what intelligence analysts judged about Iraq's chemical and biological weapons holdings."

The Senate report also rejected the contention that "all key aspects" of Iraq's offensive biological weapons program had been active before the war. Information reviewed by the committee showed this conclusion was "not supported by the underlying intelligence."

While the intelligence did show that Iraq was renovating or expanding facilities that had been "associated" with Iraq's biological programs and was engaged in research that had biological applications, "few reports suggested specifically that the activity was related" to biological warfare.

The Senate report strongly criticized the handling of information about Iraq's supposed mobile biological weapons facilities provided by a source known as Curveball, finding that the C.I.A. failed to disclose important information about the source's reliability.

In addition, the intelligence community assessment that Mr. Hussein had probably stockpiled 100 metric tons of chemical weapons agents, and perhaps as much as 500 tons, was based on an analytical judgment and not on intelligence reporting, the committee said.

However, the panel found that available intelligence did support a conclusion that biological and chemical weapons "were within Iraq's technological capability" and that Iraq was trying to obtain material that could have been used to produce them. Findings about Iraq's capability to produce and weaponize biological agents were "for the most part supported" by intelligence, the committee found. Richard A. Oppel Jr. (NYT)

Mixed on Missiles

The Senate panel said the intelligence agencies' assessments of Iraqi efforts to build medium-range missiles were "reasonable" and had a "clear foundation" in available information. But the panel said the agencies "overstated" Iraqi efforts to develop pilotless drone aircraft or their potential use in dropping biological weapons on the United States.

The Senate panel said the intelligence agencies had solid reasons to conclude that Iraq was in the final stages of developing the Al Samoud and Ababil-100 short-range missiles, both of which would have violated United Nations' prohibitions on Iraqi missiles capable of traveling more than 150 kilometers, or about 90 miles.

The panel also said the intelligence agencies used "reasonable judgment," based on available information, that Iraq was developing a medium-range ballistic missile that could have traveled even further.

But the committee concluded that the intelligence agencies did not have a basis for concluding that the drones were "probably intended to deliver biological warfare agents." The committee noted that Air Force intelligence officials were skeptical about Iraqi plans to use the drones in biological warfare and had inserted a footnote describing that kind of mission as possible but unlikely.

"Other than the Air Force's dissenting footnote, the intelligence community failed to discuss possible conventional missions," the Senate panel said, even though these less deadly purposes were "clearly noted in the intelligence reporting and which most analysts believed were the U.A.V.'s primary missions."

The panel also said the C.I.A. refused to share information with other intelligence agencies that raised doubts about the claim that Iraq was intending to use drone aircraft to attack the United States. "This lack of information sharing may have led some analysts to agree to a position that they otherwise would not have supported," the panel said. Edmund L. Andrews (NYT)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jul, 2004 06:52 pm
A good summary also in Slate's "today's papers" feature - to read it with all the links in the text still intact go here.

Quote:
Artificial Intelligence
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 06:29 pm
Quote:
CASE PRETTY MUCH CLOSED: On page 66 of the 9/11 Commission's report, the ten commissioners render their verdict on Iraq's relationship to Al Qaeda:

Quote:
Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Laden or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Laden a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Laden declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides' hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.


At the press conference yesterday, Steve Hayes of The Weekly Standard--the most tenacious proponent of a connection between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein this side of Laurie Mylroie--asked the Commission what it made of the Iraq-Al Qaeda allegation. "There's no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda," answered Commission Chairman Thomas Kean. "At one point, there was thought maybe even Al Qaeda would find sanctuary in Iraq. And there were conversations that went on over a number of years, sometimes successful, sometimes unsuccessfully. ... So I think we are very careful in our wording in using that word collaborative relationship.' I mean, that's what we found. It's language that's evidence-based." Added Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton, "I think there's a very large distinction between evidence of conversations that might have occurred between Iraq and Al Qaeda, on the one hand, and an emerging strategy or emerging assistance -- concrete -- on the other. And what we do not have, as the chairman said, is any evidence of a concrete collaborative operational agreement. Conversations, yes, but nothing concrete." Furthermore, Commissioner Bob Kerrey told a bunch of us TNR reporters later that day, "We had to get language that all ten of us could support."

There are many interesting details that the Commission unearthed and was able to publish. (Which, I have to admit, I didn't think was going to happen.) About intelligence reporting in the mid-1990s that bin Laden sought training in bomb-making from the Iraqis while in Khartoum, the commissioners write in a footnote (note 55 to Chapter two, found on page 468):

Quote:
The source claimed that Bin Laden asked for and received assistance from the [Iraqi] bomb-making expert, who remained there giving training until September 1996, which is when the information was passed to the United States. See Intelligence reports made available to the Commission. The information is puzzling, since Bin Laden left Sudan in May 1996, and there is no evidence that he ventured back there (or anywhere else) for a visit. In examining the source material, the reports note that the information was received "third hand," passed from the foreign government service that "does not meet directly with the ultimate source of the information, but obtains the information from him through two unidentified intermediaries, one of whom merely delivers the information to the Service." The same source claims that the bomb-making expert had been seen in the area of Bin Laden's Sudan farm in December 1995.


Even more interesting is footnote 76 to the same chapter, found on page 470. That's the footnote attached to the conclusion above. It cites, among other intelligence reports, a DIA analysis called "Special Analysis: Iraq's Inconclusive Ties to Al Qaeda." The commissioners write:

Quote:
We have seen other intelligence reports at the CIA about 1999 contacts. They are consistent with the conclusions we provide in the text, and their reliability is uncertain. Although there have been suggestions of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda regarding chemical weapons and explosives training, the most detailed information alleging such ties came from an al Qaeda operative who recanted much of his original information. Intelligence report, interrogation of al Qaeda operative, Feb. 14, 2004. Two senior Bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any such ties existed between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Intelligence reports, interrogations of [Khalid Shaikh Mohammed] and [Abu] Zubaydah, 2003. (Cited in CIA letter, response to Douglas Feith memorandum, "Requested Modifications to 'Summary of Body of Intelligence Reporting on Iraq-al Qaida Contacts (1990-2003)," Dec. 10, 2003, p.5) (Emphasis added.)


We knew about what KSM and Zubaydah said about non-existent Iraq-Al Qaeda ties before, but this business about chemical weapons training coming from an Al Qaeda detainee who recanted it is new. Finally, in case you were wondering, the Commission answers the question of the Atta meeting once and for all. After noting the first really, really big problem with this canard--that it came from a single source, a Middle Eastern student informant to the Czech intelligence service, who "remembered" seeing Mohamed Atta meet with an Iraqi intelligence officer five months after it supposedly happened, when he suddenly saw Atta's face all over TV post-9/11--the Commission writes, "The available evidence does not support the original Czech report of an Atta-Ani meeting." (Interestingly, the Commission adds what I think is new information: "According to the Czech government, Ani, the Iraqi officer alleged to have met with Atta, was about 70 miles away from Prague on April 8-9 and did not return until the afternoon of the ninth, while the source was firm that the sighting occurred at 11:00 A.M.")

In light of the 9/11 Commission's findings--similar in this respect to what the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence found earlier this month--the options left available to those who argue for a link are few. They can successfully argue that the Commission reaffirms contacts, conversations and points of mutual interest between Iraq and Al Qaeda throughout the 1990s. (The CIA has done so all along through this debate.) What they can't successfully do is make the jump to say that those contacts, conversations and points of mutual interest had much significance. I suppose they could argue that the pattern of contacts suggests a risk that they could have at some future point developed into a collaborative relationship, but that rather speculative point was contradicted by Hamilton. Unless some sudden, unexpected information emerges later--which, to be fair, is always a possibility--it may be time to close this case.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 08:18 pm
That is pretty heavy linkage for two people, who were said not to be on speaking terms. I remember someone recently telling me it was 'laughable' to believe the two men would talk to one another, due to religious differences. As I suspected, that was wrong.

BL was offered safe haven in Iraq.

They had a series of meetings... What about?

This Commission finding goes very far in proving the possibility that the DID work together--not that they didn't.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 05:02 am
Haven't prowled the web or A2K for several months, but on a whim took a look and found this thread both interesting and populated with familiar & respected posters, Hello to all.

I don't think that anyone in the administration ever claimed that there had been a certain coordination or conspiracy on the part of Iraq and al Quaeda. Rather there was a recognition that they were both our enemies and that their eventual collaboration was, from an historical perspective, a virtual certainty - and a particularly dangerous prospect. The inability of investigators to find any palpable evidence of an organized conspiracy prior to 9/11 is interesting, but not significant.

As anyone who has a broad understanding of history, or who has read Sun Tsu, Thucidydies, or just been in a fight will know, conflict often breeds odd alliances among disparate parties united only by a common enemy. The same sources and experiences will reveal that when confronted with several oppoonents or enemies, one must take them out or otherwise deal with them in the order and in a manner that leads to victory - and not in accord with any other logic. Examples of the effective application of these principles, even by our greatest critics, are numerous and hardly worth repeating.

We have a fairly complete knowledge of the bad side sffects of our intervention in Iraq. We can only speculate about the situation that would prevail had we done nothing. Our European critics had offered no solution whatever to the problems in the Middle East and to the growing unrest in the Moslem world - both of which problems they themselves created. (It is worth remembering that just 70 years ago over 70% of the Moslems in the world lived under European rule. The Zionist zealots who populated Israel after WWII were fleeing European genocide, exploitation, and indifference.)

It is important to examine such questions in their historical context and to apply real world logic to the examination of events. Hyperventillation over marginal details adds little to right understanding.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 02:07 pm
Shocked

He's alive!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 04:01 pm
The Vice-Chairman of the 9/11 Commission wrote:
what we do not have, as the chairman said, is any evidence of a concrete collaborative operational agreement. Conversations, yes, but nothing concrete.


Sofia wrote:
This Commission finding goes very far in proving the possibility that the DID work together--not that they didn't.


Question
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 04:02 pm
Heeey, its georgeob1!

Welcome back! Very glad to see you return to these pages. I hope your absence was not due to any unfortunate circumstances.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 04:06 pm
The primary case Bush et al made was that we should go to war with Iraq because they likely still had WMD and WMD programs which could pose a threat to the US down the road.

He was right, based on what was known then. It did seem likely that they still had WMD and WMD programs, which, had Iraq had them, would have posed a danger to the US down the road.

There's no question that Iraq had these things. The only point open to debate is how recently it had them.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 04:11 pm
georgeob1--

Your protracted absence has been widely lamented.
-----
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 01:33 am
He, George! Welcome back - and I hope, too, that your absence has had harmless reasons!
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 05:04 pm
nimh wrote:
The Vice-Chairman of the 9/11 Commission wrote:
what we do not have, as the chairman said, is any evidence of a concrete collaborative operational agreement. Conversations, yes, but nothing concrete.


Sofia wrote:
This Commission finding goes very far in proving the possibility that the DID work together--not that they didn't.


Question

In any criminal case, a prosecutor sets out to prove two things, in the absence of witnesses to a crime: motive and opportunity.

Before the Commission, you will remember detractors of Bush's intel refuting the possibility that the two men A) were on speaking terms, due to their opposing religious beliefs, and B) ever met eitherpersonally or through intermediaries. This was the extent of the case against the possibility. Unlikely alliance, and no meeting.

The Commission disproved the detractor's reasoning by showing proof that:
1) Saddam offered OBL safe haven in Iraq.
2) Saddam's intermediary did in fact meet with OBL at least three times.

Recently, the chairman of the 911 Commission stated that intel failures included the inability or lack of foresight in connecting important dots--meaning that you can't always rely on the facts being handed to you on a silver platter, with multiple sources. Sometimes, you have to look at the facts you DO have, and use reasonable judgement in figuring out what it means.

Bush did this, and has been castigated for it.

I can look at the facts uncovered by the Commission, and come to the hypothesis that OBL and Saddam were quite sympatico--and were trying to work together to a mutual goal.

Any goal of OBL's, including hiding from justice or furthering his objectives in ANY way are in diametric opposition to the best interests of the US and the free world. In offering him ANY help, Saddam is in league with OBL.

Did Saddam offer aid and comfort to OBL? Yes.

Did Saddam have motive to assist OBL? Yes.

Did Saddam have an opportunity to coordinate assistance to OBL? Yes.

Did Saddam actively assist in the planning of 911? I don't know. Neither do you.

Did Saddam and OBL, or their intermediaries meet more than once, signifying an on-going, mutual interest? Yes.

Is it a reasonable assumption that Saddam assisted, or made plans to assist OBL in some way? Yes.

Is it reasonable to assume that the assistance could have, or did enable OBL to enhance his terrorist objectives? Yes.

Did George Bush put a stop to Saddam's ability to assist OBL? Yes.
----
Findings of the Commission, which would have lessened the possibiloity that Saddam and OBL were working together:

Some memo or document from OBL refusing Saddam's safe haven.

No finding of the two meeting inperson or through intermediaries.

Some memo or document of Saddam or OBL staing the other had made an overture that was rebuffed, signifying no continuing meetings.
----
As it is, however, the findings of the Commission go further in proving an alliance, rather than the lack of one.

Pay attention to this wording:
is any evidence of a concrete collaborative operational agreement. Conversations, yes, but nothing concrete.

collaborative, operational agreement.

What would that be? A video, with a translator? Saddam pointing to maps, and OBL going, "BOOM!"
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 05:16 pm
Thank you Walter,Sofia, Nimh & Craven for your kind expressions. I am touched, undeserving, and a bit surprised to find such sentiments from those with whom I have so frequently disagreed, and on whom I have inflicted so much bombast (tho Craven does give back all he gets!).

I'm OK. I was getting ready to go to the San Francisco gathering when I found myself becoming annoyed by what then seemed to me to be an excess of henpecking and coercive planning. Probably childish of me. Soon afterwards I got a case of pneumonia which made the whole question moot, and which absorbed the next few weeks. Then a change of idle habits, catching up on work and getting back in shape (or what passes for it now).

I hope you are all well and happy, and I am glad to see you all here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 05:18 pm
sofia writes:
Quote:
is any evidence of a concrete collaborative operational agreement. Conversations, yes, but nothing concrete.

collaborative, operational agreement.

What would that be? A video, with a translator? Saddam pointing to maps, and OBL going, "BOOM!"


ROFL. Thank you. So true. And the best belly laugh I've had all week. Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 11:38 pm
Glad to hear that, George!


And: I really have nothing to disagree with you here in this site since you are back again :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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