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Ok, stop funding the Vatican

 
 
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 07:41 pm
I just noticed this headline, and the article following, which makes me quite livid, though of course I don't want to impel anyone to fund any cause, or desist from doing so. Merely a suggestion for those who disagree with this recent Vatican outburst.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2102583,00.html

Vatican cardinal calls on Catholics to stop funding Amnesty


· Group 'betrayed mission' over new abortion policy
· Human rights organisation fears dip in donations

Tom Kington in Rome
Thursday June 14, 2007
The Guardian

A senior Vatican cardinal said yesterday that Catholics should stop donating to human rights group Amnesty International because of its new policy advocating abortion rights for women if they had been raped, were a victim of incest or faced health risks.
Cardinal Renato Martino, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, accused Amnesty of turning its back on its mission to defend human rights.

"The inevitable consequence of this decision, according to the cardinal, will be the suspension of any financing to Amnesty on the part of Catholic organisations and also individual Catholics," said a statement from Cardinal Martino's office yesterday.

"AI has betrayed its mission," Cardinal Martino told the US National Catholic Register in an interview.
Amnesty changed its neutral stance on abortion in April, but its Italy chairman Paolo Pobbiati insisted its new position had been misinterpreted by the cardinal.

"This has nothing to do with legitimising abortion as part of a campaign for human rights, it is to do with combating violence against women," he said.

"It was partly inspired by our experience in Africa where soldiers rape women in communities they attack to force them to have their children. We also believe women who have had abortions should benefit from medical care regardless of the reason for the abortion. Moreover we aim to promote education and contraception to reduce abortion rates."

"AI does not take a position on whether abortion should be legal or whether it is right or wrong," it added in a statement.

In his interview with the National Catholic Register, Cardinal Martino did not see any grey areas.

"The Church teaches that it is never justifiable to kill an innocent life. Abortion is murder," he said. "To selectively justify abortion, even in the cases of rape, is to define the innocent child within the womb as an enemy, a 'thing' that must be destroyed. How can we say that killing a child in some cases is good and in other cases it is evil?"

In a statement released in Italy, Amnesty stated it did not receive funding from the Vatican or the Catholic church. Amnesty also declines support from governments and political parties. But Mr Pobbiati admitted that the fallout for funding could be serious if individual Catholics heeded Cardinal Martino's advice.

"This could be a danger to donations and we are extremely upset about these statements," he said.

Amnesty's joint campaigning with Catholic organisations could also be complicated by the Vatican's position, he said.

"We mount joint campaigns with organisations like Caritas and the Community of Sant'Egidio against the death penalty and child soldiers and in favour of arms control. We sincerely hope Catholics will not share Martino's views on funding."
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,822 • Replies: 26
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littlek
 
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Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 07:43 pm
<biggggrin>
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 07:47 pm
Amnesty International has appointed itself as an arbiter of public morality for everyone. The Catholic hierarchy does the same, though they presume only for Catholics. It seerms to me their presumption is small, compared to the former.

Perhaps you have it backwards.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 08:01 pm
The vatican pontificates widely; let me just guess more widely than amnesty international. I'm not sure I even know any Catholics who agree with C. Martino, though I'll grant there must be some.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 10:35 pm
Soo much more needs to be done to support women especially in third world countries. Naturally, the RC church has maintained the woman barefoot in the kitchen attitude from time immemorial. More babies means more material for the church. Talk about lack of caring where human life is concerned.

If trying to improve the lives of women who are victims of rape (and rape in Africa has become epidemic in war torn areas), incest or whose lives are in danger if they give birth is wrong, what on earth is right?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 09:49 am
Diane,

I don't think that the facts are with you in your conclusion above.
If you will reflect for a moment on the relative status of women in the various cultures of the world, both secular and religious, I think you will come to a different conclusion.

Improving lives required first that they be sustained, not ended.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 09:56 am
As ever-body knows, that there Dutchman Pope they got is the Antichrist, and various seemingly innocent organizations--such as the United States Navy and the Jesuits--are actually working with the Pope to prepare the world for SATAN.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 12:03 pm
Damn ! Who let that out ???

It isn't easy being the incarnation of Dostoyevski's Grand Inquisitor.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 12:42 pm
ossobuco wrote:
The vatican pontificates widely; let me just guess more widely than amnesty international. I'm not sure I even know any Catholics who agree with C. Martino, though I'll grant there must be some.

In that case, maybe the Catholics you know should leave their church and start a new one.

Diane wrote:
If trying to improve the lives of women who are victims of rape (and rape in Africa has become epidemic in war torn areas), incest or whose lives are in danger if they give birth is wrong, what on earth is right?

Preventing and exposing active aggressions against people's human rights -- which is what AI has traditionally been doing extremely well. Actually, as a matter of setting priorities, I agree with the Catholic Church that AI made a mistake. AI has only so many resources to spend on activism. Defense against active aggression is a well-defined and uncontroversial project. Now they start lobbying against governments who merely neglect to help. In my opinion, this is mission creep that compromises what AI has traditionally been good at.

Even so however, I don't understand why the Vatican can't let individual Catholics make this decision for themselves.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 12:50 pm
Thomas wrote:
Even so however, I don't understand why the Vatican can't let individual Catholics make this decision for themselves.


... or, for that matter why "AI" shouldn't allow individual tyrants to do things their own way.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 01:02 pm
You're being willfully obtuse, O'George. Thomas is talking about individual catholics supporting AI or not. To extend the analogy in the snide way you intended, the individual catholics would decide for themselves which petty dictators to support.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 02:06 pm
I don't see how the Catholic hierarchy's opinion and recommendation on such an issue (support of AI) is any more or less oppressive than AU's recommendations oin political issues which they issue so profusely. Both are opinions and neither is in any way binding on those to whom they are directed.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 02:19 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Even so however, I don't understand why the Vatican can't let individual Catholics make this decision for themselves.


... or, for that matter why "AI" shouldn't allow individual tyrants to do things their own way.


This is what you wrote, O'George. However, the analogy fails because you are comparing AI to the Vatican. AI exercises no power over anyone, and can only hope to move public opinion. The Vatican not only wields more influence, but as well has some power over those who strictly adhere to he religion. However, Thomas was only suggesting that individual Catholics be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to support AI, and not be influenced by Vatican criticisms.

So in return, you took a pot shot at AI, without any real correlation to Thomas' comment. Now you want to drag the African Union into it--did you start hittin' the bottle before the sun was above the yardarm, mate?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 03:40 pm
Well, since the announcement expressed only the opinion of the hierarchy and was not (in their terms) a matter of faith or morals, it was not binding - even for the believers. How is this any more than any of the opinions and recommendations that AI announces so prodigiously?


I believe the analogy is apt. You are making a distinction where none exists.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:00 pm
AI not only exercises no influence on "individual tyrants," individual tyrants are not their target audience--they seek to influence western public opinion. Your pathetic attempt at an analogy makes as much sense as speaking in terms of what the Vatican might tell Presbyterians they mustn't do. Which is why it seems probable to me that you must have hit the rum before noon.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:03 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Both are opinions and neither is in any way binding on those to whom they are directed.

I get your point. It's just one high-ranking cardinal's opinion, and no Catholic will be excommunicated for having a different opinion and acting on it.
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:09 pm
A brief comment (to serve also as bookmark for later posts).

Both AI and the Catholic church do some good things and both have distorted viewpoints in many aspects of life. I don't trust either.

The power of AI and the Vatican is uncomparable. So even if the saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions" often applies to AI, there's only one thing behind the Vatican's policy: will of power, as in many other times in history.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:24 pm
That may have been true in Mexico before the Revolution, but I doubt very seriously if it is true today.

In the United States AI is by far the more ubiquitous and energetic propagandizer for its particular point of view.

Is the "will to power" exhibited by the large NGOs that increasingly involve themselves directly in national and international governance any less than that of their less secular, but clear historical antecedants? I doubt that very much. Reflect for a moment on that in the context of history.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:32 pm
I've avoided getting into this, even though I started it, as this is not one of my better days for personal reasons - which matters not, or naught, except that I don't feel like cogitating. I am glad to see the back and forth, and will be back myself, forthwith.

I will have to review re the Am/I practices, I may be open to agreeing with George and/or Thomas in some way. On the other hand, some vaticanized instruction to not fund them precipitated my thread title in anger. That's power, some kind of worldwide call from hierarchy not to fund.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 04:38 pm
Well Osso, the selective morality in the various pronouncements of AI often pisses me off. Is that power?
0 Replies
 
 

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