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How do you know?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 04:27 am
Trust your first instincts. When you first meet a person you get certain "vibes". You are not yet emotionally entangled, so that you can be more objective than later on.

Looking back, I realize that I knew a lot about both my husbands the first time that I went out with them. Once I became involved, a lot was obscured.

If your first reactions are positive, let the "line" out, slowly. See how they react to small things. Don't trust anyone with something important, right from the getgo.


Quote:
Fishin, I understand your point about "if someone violates your trust then you've reached maximum trust with that person." However, that concept is actually quite new to me, because for 17 yrs it was all about "forgiveness" regardless of how heinous the crime. So I'm a little confused about what you said simply because does that mean I just walk away from that person... or it just never moves beyond that point because they violated my trust?


My mother used to have a saying, "you can't have everything in everybody". In other words, you can have certain standards for casual acquaintances, but would hold higher standards for intimates.

As far as "forgiveness" is concerned, IMO many people are confused about that concept. Forgiveness does not mean condoning what a person does. It simply means letting it go. If someone lies to you, spending your life obsessing about it won't harm the other person, but WILL harm you.

If the relationship is not that important, and the person has other good qualities, it is up to you to make the judgement as to whether to continue the relationship, on a superficial level. With intimates, it is extremely inportant that you respect and care for the person. Therefore, you would not want an intimate whom you could not trust.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 01:43 pm
boomerang wrote:
It seems to me that you have invested a lot in this guy and you haven't even gone on one date with him.



I kinda get the same feeling here but I don't know all the back story so maybe I'm missing something.

Someone once said "The entire purpose of a 1st date is to decide if there is any point in going on a 2nd date.". Using that, aside from the possibilities of being murdered, raped, etc.. by a major creep, I don't think there has to be much trust involved. Other than chit chat about where you grew up or how many siblings you have there isn't likely to be any major embarassing details divulged.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 02:36 pm
You're missing Treya's style: she rejects every man that approaches her, then quietly observes and considers men from afar...after finally settling to a conclusion, she asks him on a date and expects no less than for him to live up to all her mental simulations.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 10:46 pm
Wow stuh... your insight is profound. Profoundly ridiculous and judgmental that is. Glad to know how you feel though. Thanks for your insight. :wink:

Sorry I'm short on time. I do appreciate the comments. I'll be back when I have more than just a minute to sit down and respond.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2007 11:28 pm
Treya wrote:
Wow stuh... your insight is profound. Profoundly ridiculous and judgmental that is. Glad to know how you feel though. Thanks for your insight. :wink:

Sorry I'm short on time. I do appreciate the comments. I'll be back when I have more than just a minute to sit down and respond.


It was a joke, Treya...a joke that your posts suggest may have a hint of truth to it.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 08:51 am
Just stopped in for a minute to apologize. Argh. I'm sorry stuh. Missed that one. Still missing it actually. *sigh* (no need to attempt to explain though.) At any rate I just figure it's all part of the "American way". We've got something for everyone:

You want to eat quick? --- Pick your fast food joint. There's one on every corner.

You need groceries? --- Pick your grocery store. There's one on every corner.

You need some hardware? --- Pick your hardware store. There's one on every corner.

You need parts for your car? ---Pick an auto parts store. There's one on every corner.

You want some nice clothes? --- Pick a department store. There's one on every corner.

You need cheap clothes? --- Pick a thrift store. There's one on every corner.

You need a little of all that and then some? --- Pick a Walmart. There's one on every corner.

You want to get drunk and get laid? --- Pick a bar. There's one on every corner.

You want to get horny before you go get drunk and get laid? ---Pick a strip joint. There's usually several in town to choose from.

You want get drunk by pretending you're going to get laid then take care of your own business later? --- No problemo... Go to the bar, then swing by the sex toy shop on your way home. There's usually several of those in town as well.

Welcome to America! Land of the free!

It's all good though. It's just life. Everyone has their motivation for being where they are and doing what they do. It's not always the same. It's not always predictable. It's a pretty "safe" assumption that the majority have a purpose for being at the bar. But wasn't really fair of me to lump everyone in that class.

Be back later. Should have some time today after I run some errands since it's my day off.
0 Replies
 
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2007 09:58 am
Interesting thread.

Hi Treya, it's me, 'flushd'. Smile

I've been wondering the same thing actually. Mainly because I experienced a major violation of trust more than once, and I am finally at a point where the grief and blame is giving way to "what can I learn from this?".

One thing I did learn through and through is that putting up walls, it does not protect you.

I knew this intellectually earlier, not in my heart and bones though.

So I have swung in my adult life - mostly due to some unfortunate events early on - from the extremes in trust. Not just in intimate relationships, but as a life plan basically. hee.
I didn't trust anyone.
I needed to trust someone, and eventually, that need came and bit me in the ass...because a lot of people could see it and how I was operating through it, but I couldn't be objective about it or see it.

I also didn't realize I didn't trust myself, and that is where a lot of the trouble was coming from.
I was looking outside myself, someone else, to trust and respect first. Show me, I guess?

I am so not proud to admit this, but there you go. Mistakes can come to some use right.

I have always gone by the "Don't trust em til they prove it" mentality in relationships, and found, for me at least, it simply doesn't work.

Number 1 thing is you have to trust yourself. Actually, when it comes down to it, that's the only person you have to give absolute trust to.

The rest of them is give and take, give an inch and see what happens (a lot of people will show you so quickly by taking a mile, not showing up when they say, breaking a promise, whatever!).

Staying detached does not protect you. It can seem like it is (in the short run it does, and it is easier), but it can really really come later in the form of a major disillusionment.

Treya, I'm not saying you are necessarily repeating my mistakes - how do I know?! - but thought what I am going through now was relevent to the discussion.

I'm learning right along with you.

I do think a date is not a bad idea at this point though! To see if you enjoy his company away from that one place. It's good to see people in different situations.

And it could be fun.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 02:31 pm
boomerang wrote:
One good way to learn if someone is trustworthy is to.... oh.... I don't know.... meet them for coffee or have dinner with them, maybe go to a karoke bar and have fun, concerts are good, art shows, really the list is endless.

Dating should be fun, not scary. It's just a commitment of a few hours. Go with the idea that it will be fun. Nothing more. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

I don't know a single person who has not had their heart broken. That's how we learn. You can't just stop learning because someone broke your heart. I had two serious heart breaks (and broke a few) until I landed on the real deal. I wouldn't have recognized it if it hadn't been for the learning.

It seems to me that you have invested a lot in this guy and you haven't even gone on one date with him.

Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.


Hey boomer. Thanks for your insight. I know it should be fun not scary. I know I probably think too much and definitely analyze too much. That's the majority of the problem and what makes it appear that I've invested a lot in this guy I think. I don't really think I have at this point, but yes I've thought about starting to. I've mulled it over, picked it apart. Looked for inconsistencies in the things he says and does. All the things I didn't do with my husband.

Bohne wrote:
I ALWAYS start by trusting people until they show that they do not deserve my trust.
After that, however, I think it is impossible to win my trust back!

Having said that, that does not mean, that I would give a stranger 1000 Euro and expect them to give it back!
I might be trusting, but I am not stupid!


There was a time I used to do that too bohne. Those days, at least for now, are history.

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Trust your first instincts. When you first meet a person you get certain "vibes". You are not yet emotionally entangled, so that you can be more objective than later on.

Looking back, I realize that I knew a lot about both my husbands the first time that I went out with them. Once I became involved, a lot was obscured.

If your first reactions are positive, let the "line" out, slowly. See how they react to small things. Don't trust anyone with something important, right from the getgo.


I had alright vibes from the get go about this guy. We've talked a lot on the phone but hadn't actually gone out yet. He had asked me the one time then blew it. Simply put, we were at the karaoke bar and had spent most of the evening talking. He worked up the courage to ask me out, I agree to dinner, and about ten minutes later some girl came up interrupted our conversation, was all over him, and I became invisible.

I knew this girl because she's been there before, usually all over any guy who will let her. I was debating if I wanted to say anything or not and instead just went to the bathroom. When I came back she had pulled him out on the dance floor and was all over him. You could tell by looking at him that he wasn't comfortable with this situation, however I decided "Screw it. He's just like every other guy who will chase after whatever he thinks is available." So I left.

I was just about to get in my truck and he came out the door. He apologized. I said thanks and I drove away. He left too. Another one bites the dust as far as I was concerned. About a week later he called me. We talked briefly about what had happened so ok, I know the girl pretty much chases anything she thinks she can take home for the night. I've watched her do it a lot. I know we weren't even dating at the time it happened. I wasn't jealous like that, I just was upset that someone could just flash their "stuff" in front of him like that and he'd follow right along like a lost puppy dog.

He kept calling, we kept talking, and eventually after a lot of thought I decided that guys are guys. I can't honestly say that I've met one yet that wouldn't respond on some level to the stuff this girl was doing that night. So I let it go... well put it on the back burner anyway, and went on a date with him finally. We went to a restaurant that does karaoke. Ate food, sang songs, and had a good 'ol time. No pressure. Nothing. It was just nice.

So I agreed to another date last night. We met at a little locals Karaoke bar after I got out of work. He was pretty much lit by the time I got there. *sigh* My defenses automatically went up. That is my number one turn off in life. A guy who's drunk drunk. I had only seen him like that once before out of several times I'd seen him from a distance at the karaoke bar. So I decided that it happens to the majority at some point. Taking one too many shots or whatever, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for now that it wasn't something that he did all the time.

He wasn't sloppy drunk though. Had he been like that I would have turned around and walked right back out the door. So anyway, to make a long story short we sat talked. Well... he talked. A lot. He kind of just laid it all out there, which really surprised me. I don't know if it's just because he was drunk and feeling no pain at that point, or if it was genuine. I don't know. Maybe I'm just thinking too much. I didn't really say much of anything back to him last night.

I'm still debating what I'm going to say today when he calls. Don't get me wrong. He didn't get too forward with what he was saying, like, "Oh I love you baby, I wanna spend the rest of my life with you." Nothing like that. Just sweet stuff. Like how beautiful he thinks I am. How much he enjoys talking to me, spending time with me, whatever. How he's not going to make the first move even to kiss me because he wants it to happen when I'm comfortable. That kind of thing.

*sigh*

So there it is. I know I kind of let this thread die. I'm sorry if it felt like I was ignoring anyone. Since my dad died I don't really spend much time just sitting around anymore. It seems to help me not dwell on the fact that he's not here. I appreciate the advice that you all have given though. I'm just scared that's all. I tend to be a bit of an extremist on things. I swing way one way... like trusting too much, then waaay the other way... like not trusting at all. It sure would be nice to find some balance. I guess that's what I'm looking for here.

Flushd... I love you new name! Thanks for sharing what you did. It really helps to know someone has struggled on the same level as I am right now. I understand what you are saying, and maybe you're right. Maybe I don't really trust myself and that's the real issue here. I haven't ever really thought about it that way. However I can definitely see the truth in that. Ummm... so I guess that leaves me with one more question... if I don't trust myself does that somehow make me unfit for a relationship?

... The last thing I want to do here is end up stringing him along and hurting him in the end because I can't trust myself enough to let myself trust anyone else. I'd say he's invested a lot more at this point than I have. It makes me want to invest some. I don't know. I just don't want to hurt anyone, but how will I ever learn how to trust myself if I don't ever take a chance right? It doesn't have to be huge. Just one step at a time. So it all makes sense to me, it's just taking that first step is scary because I don't want to step out too far. Argh... I'm thinking too much again.... *sigh*
0 Replies
 
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 05:36 pm
lol. Hey, don't worry about him. He'll be fine.

Yeah, I do think it's a learn as you go thing, and you have take some steps out there to get back in the game and build up the trust again.

You're trying, so be easy on yourself. Whatever pace you want, it's totally fine.

It's all adventures, right?
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 02:05 pm
Absolutely mushypancakes! Indeed. Smile
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 02:25 pm
By the way I totally agree that dating -- the activity of going out with someone, getting to know that person a little bit, going to a movie or something -- should be fun. (Not that I've ever really done it! I always just kind of hung out with an amorphous blob of friends, male or female, and at some point one of the friends would become a more-than-friend.)

Entering into a relationship -- especially after getting out of a tough one -- can definitely be scary, though. I say that by way of sympathy rather than telling you that you SHOULD be scared. No decisions need to be made now -- have fun, find out more about this person, see what you think. One step at a time, as you say. He's been honest (has he been honest when he wasn't drunk? red flag if no, IMO), you can be honest back about needing some time. Then just hang out. Have fun.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 05:14 pm
sozobe wrote:
By the way I totally agree that dating -- the activity of going out with someone, getting to know that person a little bit, going to a movie or something -- should be fun. (Not that I've ever really done it! I always just kind of hung out with an amorphous blob of friends, male or female, and at some point one of the friends would become a more-than-friend.)

Entering into a relationship -- especially after getting out of a tough one -- can definitely be scary, though. I say that by way of sympathy rather than telling you that you SHOULD be scared. No decisions need to be made now -- have fun, find out more about this person, see what you think. One step at a time, as you say. He's been honest (has he been honest when he wasn't drunk? red flag if no, IMO), you can be honest back about needing some time. Then just hang out. Have fun.


Yes, he has been honest so far, as far as I know. (I've only seen him drunk twice.) Actually, there hasn't been a thing that I know of that he's tried to hide from me. Some of the stuff he's talked to me about has been a bit surprising actually. It's kind of odd to meet someone who has an air of confidence about them not by just what they say, or just by what they do, but actually by both combined.

We are having fun. That much is true. Though I'm struggling with fear at times, when we're together it's not so hard to let that go. It's more when I am alone and thinking too much that I get myself all worked up about stuff. Actually, I'm quite comfortable with him at this point. I have been honest about needing some time. He's never pressured me for anything.

Even tonight... he wanted to hang out, but I told him no because I'm kind of worn out from this weekend and just want to chill at home. No problem. Didn't even question it actually. Just said ok, and made plans to go help his step-mom with some internet problems instead. Funny thing is... now that I'm here I do want to spend time with him. LOL What a trip.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 07:21 pm
Treya wrote:
Yes, he has been honest so far, as far as I know. (I've only seen him drunk twice.)


Not quite what I asked, and I can't quite tell if you answered it in what you said later -- has he said this stuff about how you're so beautiful and he'll wait to kiss you until he's comfortable etc. when he's been sober?

Oh and I don't think you can make the decision about stringing him along this early in the relationship. (As in, not even getting involved because you don't want to string him along.) It doesn't seem like you know enough yet.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 10:52 pm
Sorry... spaced out there for a minute and didn't quite get what you were asking sozobe. Confused So to answer your question... no. However, the other thing to take into consideration also is that at no point have we had a two way conversation about any of that either. I have made comments from day one regarding my comfort level with someone needing to be pretty high for there to be any "action" of any sort. He's never really commented back, but he hasn't walked away either... kind of mysterious if you ask me.

Most guys seem to make it only to the first time I say it... some hang in for two or three times... but usually eventually they walk away. *shrugs* It's just my way I guess. That's what I mean when I talk about stringing someone along. I guess I kind of view it as misleading someone intentionally, when I'm not sure of my own intentions. Maybe it's bad of me, but I'm pretty cut and dry when it comes to this kind of thing. I don't play "the game". Just kind of like BOOYA... here I am. What you see is what you get. I don't mince words. If you like me... awesome. If not... well... thanks for your time and have a nice day.

I figure it saves us all some heartache in the end. Humm.... I guess I could be wrong though. But it's the only way I know how to handle things at this point so I don't get swindled by some wolf in sheep's clothing again. So anyway, I'm writing this as I just got back from his apartment. We watched a movie. He didn't make a move on me, he hugged me three times before I left and then told me that he is so glad that I came over to spend some time with him because he likes spending time with me.

At this point his actions are speaking louder than his words to me. But what do you think?
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