I can't write this email...

Yeah, it's folks like you that keep the Relationships & Parenting forums going strong, Kicky. :wink:

That's what I started to do, but it rang false. Especially, she wasn't asking if we could at a certain time -- she was asking WHEN we could. "Busy" doesn't work in that context. ("Sorry, whole summer's booked, see ya next year!")



That was their first playdate, also didn't go well.

I think I'm fine with the latest wording -- not uncomfortable with it, willing to stand by it, etc. -- and plan to send. Especially, I like that it leaves things open. If Sally and sozlet do get along next time they see each other, great. If not, oh well.

I do like the short approach. Maybe not even bothering with sweet.

~~~~

Sozlet would rather not have a playdate with Sally.

~~~~

Seems most like the way kids did it in the days before playdates.

Do you want to come over to my house?
No.

~~~

Perhaps playdate arranging needs more parental 'sweet' added, but holding out hope seems hmmm, not 'dangerous', but something that my brain can't find a word for right now.

Already sent.

It's pretty short as-is, and I like that it takes the parents out of so sozlet CAN do the "do you want to play with me"/ "no" part. They're going to be running into each other all the time, probably until they graduate from high school. Small community.

ok, already sent....but I'll still chime in....

Everyone feel free to correct me, I'm just going how I remember feeling as a kid, since I have none of my own.

First, a dumb question...Is a "play date" pretty much the equivilent of "going over to Sally's house to play"?

If so, well, sozlet doesn't want to go over to Sally's hous to play. It really seems as simple as that to me.

In fact, it seems even more simple, in that Sozlet doesn't want to be Sally's friend.

What I can remember is that if someone wanted or didn't want to be your friend, you and the other kid handled between themselves.

I wouldn't like it today if someone made excuses for me why I didn't want to get together and be friends with someone I didn't like, since I can speak for myself.

Isn't this like a social skill the kids have to work about amongst themselves?

I had these 3 gf when I was little, 2 sisters, Carolyn and Diane, and Doreen, who lived right across the street from the 2 sisters. I don't know what was going on, but there was this huge feud going on, and each side wanted me to never ever go to the other house. I just ignored them and went to the different houses....eventually I decided I didn't like the 2 sisters as much, and hung out at Doreens. Never bad mouthed the others though....

This was I think in 2nd grade....Doreen was in 3rd.

Then, when I was in 4th grade and Doreen in 5th, she suddenly became best friends with another 5th grader, and there was no room for me anymore.
I was confused, sure, but got over it....one day Doreen and her new best friend where avoiding me on the playground, and I was trying to join them is how I saw it, horn in on them in their view.

Suddenly Doreen turned to me and just said "Why don't you leave us alone"! and stomped off. Yeah, I felt really hurt, and cried...but having my mother talk to her mother and all that wasn't going to change the fact Doreen didn't want me around.

Let Sozlet deal with it.

If Sally is insecure, that's sad, and I hope she gets over it. But sozlet should be able to have fun, and not have to worry about Sally "horning in". Showing anger isn't always a bad thing....it lets the other person you don't like the status quo.

But....what do I know?

Oh. I reread the thread. Must've missed the part about "WHEN."

As long as you're comfortable with it, you did the right thing. I just think when your gut is saying, "Ummm???" it's always best not to do anything, and I was responding to the title of the thread.

I'm sure you were as diplomatic as you could be. I think you'll be glad you left the door open for Sozlet to change her mind. Kids change their minds about people a lot. It can be exasperating to watch sometimes. But they are kids, and their personalities can and do change.

Good job, Mom. (Here, have a drink. :wink: )

Oh thanks Eva....that's another point I wanted to make....

these 2 might go in and out of friendship several times in the next few years.

I think that's just natural. I think you'd drive yourself nuts trying to figure out who was friends with who on any particular day.

See, this is why boys is superior midgets . . .

In the days of Eisenhower, when good girls, never, ever, ever did things like that, and homosexuals and blacks did not exist, there was no such thing as a play date. At some point, when your chores were done, you got yelled at and told to get out from under her feet. You wandered off somewhere else in town in the hope of getting in some kind of trouble which She Who Must Be Obeyed would never find out about (fat chance). If there was a kid you didn't like, and he wouldn't leave you alone, you slugged him (unless his brother was bigger than your brother, in which case you pushed him from behind and ran before anyone saw you). If he didn't like you, and you bugged him, he slugged you, or if your brother was bigger than his brother, he'd do something bad, and bring it to the teacher's attention, while blaming you.

Rock throwing was always very popular, too.

Girls make everything way too difficult.

I wish I'd been born a boy sometimes.


But, that reinforces my thoughts to let them work it out themselves.

eh....

Nah, I think it's more about the times than anything else. Play is more structured and planned now. Kids don't have chores and parents are paranoid about letting them run unsupervised for fear of child molesters or DCS workers or both.

Or people plain aren't HOME. That's the biggest one. No kids are around until about 6 PM around here, and then they have dinner, and spend time with their parents, and go to bed.

I completely agree with FreeDuck that it's mostly a function of the times. I'd so LOVE to be able to shoo sozlet out and have her find kids to play with and just run amok for a while. Not possible right now though. In a couple of years, she'll be able to hop on her bike and be a lot more free-range, get over to people's houses who ARE home.

But right now, it's playdates or going to a gathering place like the pool. That's the closest to a real free-for-all, and I like it for that reason. Parents on the fringes, kids figuring out who to play with and how.

I think I agree with pretty much all that you're saying, Chai, just how does that translate? I get this email from Sally's mom saying, "So, when can the kids get together? Sally's dying to have a playdate with sozlet" and I say... what, exactly? "Let's have the kids meet at 6 and they can hash it out"?

I'm basically doing a version of that -- "I'm out of this, but if, when the kids happen to see each other, they negotiate a friendship themselves, cool."

Yeh. I'm fine with soz' last email, as responding necessarily, but not either sugarcoating or shutting out anything the girls themselves work out.

This is all bemusing to me, though by now I understand the playdate thing. I'm (no doubt uselessly) sad about it, in the way it takes plasticity out of children's lives...

I was late to having childhood friends, very late. Didn't really have one until third grade, and then we moved again. However... back in first and second grade, I must have at least played a little with some of the kids in my class at recess, in that school in California. Was in third grade in NYC, 4th in Evanston, Illinois. Evanston was when really great childhood friendship developed, with all its sturm and drang - but also, in the spring of that fourth grade year, we went back to LA for a project of my father's, and I got inserted back into that same first grade class group out there, all the kids a few years older.
That time was good too, as some children remembered me, and I was pulled into jacks games and such. Phew, as otherwise I'd be even weirder. Then back to Chicago.

So, what, re sozlet and sally....
Sozlet will be fine. I'm worried about Sally, as she's already being insecure/messed up. I think to the extent soz was direct with mom, while not being hurtful, it can help the mom think about the grabbing and insecurity, and maybe get some advice/counselling on it, early on.

Well...first of all...you're not under any obligation to immediately answer Sally's Moms email....or answer it at all for that matter.

How about the truth? As in...."I asked sozlet if she wanted to go over to Sally's house, but she said she didn't want to....." If Sally's mom is dense enough to question that, just tell her you respect Sozlets privacy. period.

You're also not beholden to Sally's mom to explain to her why another human being feels a certain way. In fact, you can't, because, you're not sozlet.

People don't always have to "hash things out" Sozlet may feel there's nothing to hash out. She may just not want to play with Sally.

I think the mom's need to step out of the way.

I think that was the point of soz's email. She's saying, sozlet doesn't want a playdate, sorry. Now it's up to them whether they still want to be friends. There's no need to be abrupt of hurtful about it and I think she struck the right balance.

No, but again, the alternative is...?

Remember, these are people we see all the time, scheduled or not.



And that is substantially different from "Unfortunately, when I asked sozlet, she said she'd prefer not to have a playdate with Sally right now" how, exactly?



That was kind of my point.



Again, HOW do the moms step out of the way? You're saying general things in this generally critical way (when you're not seeming to utterly ignore what I actually wrote), but can you give me something specific? As far as I can tell, you're just saying to ignore the mom, which is ruder than the situation calls for IMO.

oh okay, I get where I'm being unclear.

see....you're using words like "at this time"

That IS substantially different as in how some people will react.

and no, I'm not being critical, and no, I'm not advocating being rude. I just find using words like "at this time", like many other phrases like "let me think about it" when you know for sure, or "maybe some day" when it's never gonna happen, is hemming and hawing and drawing out the agony. If Sally's mom can't see that sozlet is drawing away from Sally, when you can, she's not being that observant. People who aren't observant tend not to realize people saying "maybe" in so many words are just trying to be indirect.

However, there's two different relationships going on here....sozlets and sally's, and sally's mom and you.

where you're seeing not responding to an email right away, or at all as ignoring....I see it as giving the kids the opportunity to run into each other by happenstance, like at a playground, and letting them solve this in their own way.

Just because you're going to be seeing this woman on something of a regular basis over the years (or maybe not), that doesn't mean you need to have this involved relationship with her.

I think it's this concept of "playdate" where mom's get involved in all this planning kinda gets in the way....

What ever happened to Sally calling sozlet on the phone and asking "wanna come over and play"? Sozlet could then, on her own, say "No, I don't wanna" or "ok"

sozlet might need you to drive her over there, but I assume that wouldn't be a problem to arrange that at a mutually convenient time.

Seriously, when did it switch to one little girl having her mom call the other little girls mom to find out if the little girl wants to come over for and hour to play dolls?

the world hasn't changed that much....at least I hope it hasn't...and if the world is now a place where 2 little girls can't end up having a pissy fight without the 2 moms emailing each other back and forth over it and discussing all these issues, then I'm glad I'm not a kid now.

That's part of what being a kid is all about....getting into a fight with someone you don't like, and learning that you can't always run to the teacher or mom.

This might send mothers here into orbit, but what's wrong if it comes to pass that next time Sally pushes sozlet away from other people, sozlet pushes back?

And really soz, I'm sitting her and typing this and NOT feeling critical, or all knowing, or rude....just wondering about all this new fangled stuff. Being a kid means playing around and fighting and making up, fighting again and a year from now being best friends.

Let nature take it's course. Fact is, maybe sozlet and Sally Don't run into each other in the next month or so (could happen), or even the next couple of weeks, Sally may have lost all interest in sozlet anyway....they're little kids.

Again, I AM letting nature take it's course.

"At this time" is important 'cause it's, y'know, at this time. I can't see into the future. As someone here said, "these 2 might go in and out of friendship several times in the next few years." Que sera, sera.

But this is getting circular. I think I've already responded to what you're saying, would just be repeating myself to continue.

Meanwhile, got an email back from Sally's mom. Very nice. "I'm sorry to hear it but I completely understand." And noting that sozlet likes to hang out with many people at once while Sally wants exclusivity at all times.

Yesterday sozlet went on a playdate for a few hours; I got the "no" answer to a playdate with Sally before she left, worked on my response when she was gone, and sent when she got home. After I sent it, I told her, and she said "Thank you!" Something in her tone made me wonder, and I asked if when she was at the pool for her playdate (it started at someone's house, then the pool), Sally was there, and she said "yes."

Turned out, Sally was continuously squirting sozlet with a squirt gun. Sozlet was OK with it at first, ha ha, then started getting really annoyed. Told her to stop, Sally didn't stop. Told her more strongly, didn't stop. Eventually told her mom, her mom told her to stop -- didn't stop. Mom told her to stop or they'd leave -- didn't stop. They left.

So all of that happened maybe a couple of hours before I sent the email -- certainly helped make the case.

The only problem here is that the mom seems to think it's about exclusivity -- an implication that it'd be fine if it were just the two of them -- but sozlet didn't enjoy the solo playdate either. And that's just an implication.

At any rate, it seems to be resolved for now -- my stomach won't clench when I inevitably run into them, and no playdates indefinitely. ("Let me know if sozlet changes her mind about a playdate and we'd love it.")

Thanks for your help, guys!

Chai,

it sounds to me like this sally girl is just too much of a bully to allow sozlet the good swing she needs to get the fight going so that there can be clearer times after words.

I hear what you are saying. Loud and clear, but I think that this Sally girl has just been so much of a bully , and so over bearing to sozlet that she has no clue, no room, and no way to fight back. So her 'fighting back' right now has to rely on mom to say so. Sally is just too much.

I remember having my mom do things like this too.

One time in particular was a little girl who loved on the same block, just one duplex over.
I literally saw her everyday, or heard her voice every day.

She would try to beat me up, insult me, steal from me, or just all around be a little turd. And i tried many times to fight back. To get my stuff back, or to simply ignore her.
After many tearful days, my mom finally asked me once if I wanted to play with her and I said no. Then she asked why. I told her and she said something like " thats what I thought was happening" and she went over to talk to that girls mom. When she got back, I remember feeling good. Validated, and excited .. I told her " Do it again"

Since we dont have to rely on phones as much, or the notes to the teacher, email is perfect for most families. It is the equivalent to the little fist fight and a way for parents to work out and solve issues that maybe only they can.
My example, there was no way in the world I was getting that little brat to stop. But mommy did. She helped me have my space.

And ya know.. a few months went by, and we were good friends for.. almost the entire second grade. I still remember her name, and when I drive by the duplex's that we lived in, my hand print and her name are still in the concrete. HA

So, from that I can absolutely understand why Soz is using words like " at this time" because.. for a child.. a week is a year, and 2 month is a re-set button for life.
So yeah, at this time, they dont want to be friends. but tomorrow.. they might be best friends.

Hmm, I may have overstated the problems with Sally -- she's not a bully. Sozlet did genuinely like her for a while there -- when they'd see each other they'd run up and hug. Sozlet seems to get along with her best IN class, when there are a lot of limits and they can just talk to each other or be silly, with instrinsic limits (different tables, structured time) plus the teacher stepping in for more extreme situations.

It also seemed to get worse over the course of the year. Something like, sozlet was generally friendly to everyone, Sally was generally looking for a friend, that intersected, and they did well when it was low-level -- but as Sally started thinking of sozlet as a GOOD friend, and sozlet continued to think of Sally as one-friend-of-many, problems started.

Sozlet's stood up for herself each time there's been an actual problem. At the playdate it wasn't anything too bully-ish, she just didn't really have fun.

I'm not for working out the kids' problems via email. It's just the only practical way to do this kind of scheduling. Usually the heavy lifting is done before the first playdate is scheduled. Kids work out whether they want to play together on their own. Then they go to the parents -- "Mom, can I have a playdate with Nina?" Then I bring it up with Nina's mom -- "Hey, maybe the kids can get together sometime...?" Then Nina's mom talks to Nina about whether SHE wants to get together. If Nina doesn't, nothing happens. If Nina does, Nina's mom contacts me, and we set something up.

Anyway, the point is, this rarely changes midstream. Usually the most important part is the kids deciding they want to have a playdate, on their own. (Nobody I've asked has said "no," so I think everytime sozlet brings it up with me it's already been agreed to between the kids.)

OOOoohhh! I get you.
Yeah, I was thinking otherwise.. that Sally was being alot ruder to her then that.
I got the impression that she was just too mean of a kid.
Could have been what Chai was thinking as well.

(oops )