Just as a general comment; why do people who start threads suddenly act as though they actually paid for the space and own it? Threads get "derailed" all the time, it is just natural to progress through one discussion to the next.
How very snotty of you. I both asked that people stay on topic, and acknowledged that it is something over which i have no control. If it is so distasteful to you, i wonder that you waste your time here.
Or perhaps you actually have an à propos comment to make on the likely political consequences of the Shrub's action.
Setanta wrote:How very snotty of you. I both asked that people stay on topic, and acknowledged that it is something over which i have no control. If it is so distasteful to you, i wonder that you waste your time here.
Or perhaps you actually have an à propos comment to make on the likely political consequences of the Shrub's action.
I doubt Bush actually pardons Libby unless Libby loses on appeal. If he pardons him, those who hate will just hate him more. It might score a few points with those on the right who got ticked off with just a commuting the sentence (he needs all the points he can get.) If he don't pardon him if Libby loses the appeal, I imagine those same people will be fit to be tied.
ebrown_p wrote:If a bunch of crimes... all of which benefit me, take place, and if people who work for me have motive and opportunity to commit these crime-- I will be investigated.
The difference is that I don't have the power to block the investigation. If one of my employees is convicted of commiting a crime to block this investigation... I don't have the ability to play legal games to keep him from testifying.
What pisses me off is the misuse of power to stop an investigation. Bush shouldn't be using presidential powers to put roadblocks in the way of the investigation.
Maybe he just misused presidential power to free a buddy.
sure, why not. he's misused and abused just about every other power he's been given.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:sure, why not. he's misused and abused just about every other power he's been given.
Absolutely fascinating that you make a blanket accusation like this without giving one single example. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
Brandon9000 wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:sure, why not. he's misused and abused just about every other power he's been given.
Absolutely fascinating that you make a blanket accusation like this without giving one single example. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
Lied about the NSA wiretapping as you well know.
Cycloptichorn
He also lied about torture.
saddam, yellow cake and niger.
you keep saying this "where's your evidence ?!?!? " nonsense even now after 5+ years of me, along with countless others wasting our time digging it up and posting it just so you and your pals can say some **** like," well that's from the mainstream media! they're all liberals out to hurt this president !"
like he needed any help in that department..
games over bucko. jury's in. your team is corrupt, greedy and astoundingly full of ****. even worse than the democrats.
that is the mainstream opinion.
we may not all agree with anything beyond that, but anyone with a fooking brain in their head can see and feel that our country is not in very good condition.
it's you who are out of step with mainstream americans.
Brandon9000 wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:sure, why not. he's misused and abused just about every other power he's been given.
Absolutely fascinating that you make a blanket accusation like this without giving one single example. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
What's fascinating is that you still make excuses for these thugs.
cicerone imposter wrote:He also lied about torture.
And you are responsible for a string of unsolved murders. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything. Got a specific fact about this? I've never seen more accusations without specifics in my life. Give one (and only one) quotation from him, and then present a little evidence that it's a lie. Don't link me to some article in lieu of an argument.
Roxxxanne wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:sure, why not. he's misused and abused just about every other power he's been given.
Absolutely fascinating that you make a blanket accusation like this without giving one single example. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
What's fascinating is that you still make excuses for these thugs.
Now there's an air tight proof.
Why would Bush want a torture bill if he doesn't torture our prisoners?
The ACLU says it all:
The American Civil Liberties Union expressed distress as the Senate adopted S.3930, the Military Commissions Act of 2006. That bill is identical to legislation adopted by the House yesterday and removes important checks on the president by: failing to protect due process, eliminating habeas corpus for many detainees, undermining enforcement of the Geneva Conventions, and giving a "get out of jail free card" to senior officials who authorized or ordered illegal torture and abuse.
"This legislation gives the president new unchecked powers to detain, abuse, and try people at Guantanamo Bay and other government facilities around the world," said Caroline Fredrickson, Director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. "Unfortunately for America, the Senate chose not to deliberate today. Instead, it joined the House and President Bush in jamming through a hastily written bill before running home to try to campaign."
Senators rejected several amendments that would have corrected shortcomings in the legislation. The bill gives the president license to weaken enforcement of the basic protections in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. As passed, the president would have new power to decide much of the scope of authorized conduct and the severity of punishment, giving him unparalleled power to unilaterally determine whether the government can carry out cruelty and abuse.
Additionally, the bill undermines the American value of due process by permitting convictions based on evidence literally beaten out of a witness or obtained through other abuse by either our government or other countries. Government officials who authorized or ordered illegal acts of torture and abuse would receive retroactive immunity for many of these acts, providing a "get out of jail free" card that is backdated nine years.
In the closest vote today, the Senate rejected by a 51-48 vote an amendment by Senators Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Patrick Leahy (D-VT) to preserve minimal protections of the courts in their historical and constitutional role as a check on the executive branch, through habeas corpus.
"Nothing could be less American than a government that can indefinitely hold people in secret torture cells, take away their protections against horrific and cruel abuse, put them on trial based on evidence they cannot see, sentence them to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and then slam shut the courthouse door for any habeas petition," said Christopher Anders, an ACLU Legislative Counsel. "But that's exactly what Congress just approved."
Some people are just plain ignorant to trust Bush and his ring of criminals.
After watching a furious Keith Olbermann's outstanding comments about Bush's action, I was astonished that, for the rest of the evening, almost all of the reporters and talking heads missed the real reason Bush commuted Libby's jail sentence. It was to protect Bush and Vice President Cheney! Libby worked for Vice President Cheney, but his title is "Assistant to the President."
Bush's commutation only eliminated Libby's jail time. It, apparently, also voided his probation time, too. It didn't eliminate his conviction parole status and his ongoing appeal of the judge's decision. This means that Congress can subpoena Libby to testify, but he can invoke his 5th Amendment rights because of his ongoing appeal of his conviction.
Libby could have told prosecutor Fitzgerald the truth about Bush-Cheney-Rove roles in the Wilson-Plame retaliation and outing of a covert CIA agent. It could still happen if Libby was doing time in prison. But now, Bush has given him cover with the commutation. All of the participants just have to do is wait for the clock to run out and Libby's reward for his silence will be a Bush pardon the day before he leaves office.
If Bush had pardoned Libby now, Scooter would not have any protection against being forced to testify before Congress, maybe even truthfully, while Bush,Cheney, Rove are still in office---and subject to impeachment.
Shame! on the Press for prattling only about how Bush's action would effect elections, his ratings, his party, retrying the Wilson case, etc.
Shame! on the Press for not shouting out to the public that Bush's action continues the cover up of criminal acts.
Shame! on Bush for pretending to care about Libby and his family when he's only trying to protect himself.
SHAME!
Bush said, "we don't torture our prisoners."
From CBS News:
Bush: 'We Don't Torture'
Brandon relies on the sophisticated language from the lawyers of the administration to say that they don't torture because it falls short of organ failure and whatnot. (which is not what is in the GC by any means) In other words they get to decide what is torture and what is not. The fact is that in the final signing in the McCain torture bill, there was a statement in the bill that says in final analysis the president gets to decide on methods required. Its utter bull crap to anyone of any kind of moral logic whats so ever.
Waiver right is reserved
definition of torture from worldnet-princeton
Quote:Noun
S: (n) anguish, torment, torture (extreme mental distress)
S: (n) torture, torment (unbearable physical pain)
S: (n) agony, torment, torture (intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain) "an agony of doubt"; "the torments of the damned"
S: (n) distortion, overrefinement, straining, torture, twisting (the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean)
S: (n) torture, torturing (the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason) "it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession"
Verb
S: (v) torment, torture, excruciate, rack (torment emotionally or mentally)
