Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

Is there a problem with flying a flag? Don't confuse admiring the standard of the greatest nation on Earth with "ultra-patriotism". We Americans are proud of what our flag stands for.

I am sorry people in other countries can't stomach what theirs stands for.

I personally like the vagina.

I wasn't aware that Italy and Germany were not part of Europe. They are 2 countries that have experienced Fascism first hand.

That might well be our (European) problem: people showing flags here, etc - something, which you think is "admiring the greatest nation of the world" - are usually neo-nazis or at least extreme right-wings.
(I remember the confusion when people started driving with flags on their cars before and during the World Championship, here, in the UK and in France the reactions were quite similar.)

"The greatest nation of the world" is another keyword: we Germans are unfortunately reminded to exactly the same words said by Mr. Megalomania Goebbels (and his cohorts).

I seriously do think that our view might be wrong, but is printed especially by our latest history.
And in the 20's no-one really considered such to be dangerous, too.

Most of us are familiar with Germany's history as a bad country Walter, no need to remind us.

So I can't try explain what I think to be the reason for a certain view on a thread I started myself?

Are you really so delusioned of grandeur, McG?

Wow! I think I would have done better when my brain was still asleep, Walter. Just found out that the Wolfe lady was a feminist and that does tend to color one's thinking a wee bit.

Where are Kurt Levin and Konrad Lorenz when we need 'em.

Is that what you were doing?

I've no fun being insulted on my own thread.

I'm out here.

We must just hope that by the next generation, Bush and Blair would be a word or two in our history books - all negative about their push for an illegal war.

All of those nations had native fascist or fascistic groups in the 1930s. Indeed, the last genuine fascist (as opposed to the racist skinhead "fascists" of today) was a Belgian.

I am always wary of accusations that this or that nation was, is or is becoming fascist. For example, after the civil war in Finland, in which the "White Guards" defeated the "Red Guards," the Finns allied themselves with the German Empire, and briefly flirted with a monarchy, and a German monarch. But the defeat of Germany in 1918, and effective removal of the "Red" threat because of the turmoil in Russia and war between Trotsky's Red Army and Kolchak's "Whites," lead to a parliamentary democracy. Part of the legacy of that civil war was the Lapua movement, which was right-wing, anti-communist and nationalist. As such, the movement was initially popular, especially because of the anti-communist agenda. Finns justifiably feared their Russian neighbor, which had warred in Finland, and had occupied parts of Finnland, and at times, all of Finnland, since the days of Petr Alexeevitch in the first decade of the 18th century. The Finnish civil war ended, and a parliamentary government was established before the end of the Russian civil war in 1920, and the Finns were largely free to pursue their own political ends.

But the Lapua movement became more and more fascist, and increasingly advocated a one party nationalist government (guess which party), and they were outlawed in 1932 after a failed attempt at a coup. In the 1930s, the Soviet Union, having defeated the "Whites" and having more or less established a stable government, leaned on the Finns to allow military bases on Finnish territory. The Finns resisted, and rejected the 1938 Soviet offer, which essentially required the Finns to surrender military independence to the Soviets, and allow the construction of Soviet bases on Finnish territory. The result was the Winter War. But the Winter War did not turn the Finnish government into a fascist government, and the alliance with National Socialist Germany did not make the Finns fascists. People ignore that the Finns fought the Germans who had entered northern Finland from Norway, which is, in my never humble opinion, evidence that the Finns overriding concern was to maintain their own independence. Finnish Jews participated in the Finnish army, not just in the Winter War, but in the "Continuation War" when Finland was allied to Germany. The Finnish government refused to consider the Finnish Jews as anything other than Finnish soldiers, and a field synagogue was established, without regard to German "sensitivities."

I understand that there were fascists in Finland. But they did not control the government, and calling the Finns fascists because they allied with the Germans against their almost hereditary enemies, the Russians, is an absurdity. The measure of whether or not a nation is to be considered fascist is the government which the people either choose or tolerate. On that basis, Greece in the 1930s and -40s was a fascist nation, although the stupidity of the Italians who invaded Greece drove them into the Allied camp. Not just politics, but war makes strange bedfellows. I see no good reason to consider that Finland was fascist because they allied with Germany against their Soviet neighbor who had imposed on them for years, and who had invaded them in 1939.

On the same basis, i have no doubt that there are in the United States people who can be described as fascists, or at the least, crypto-fascists. There may well be a large number who would tolerate a fascist government, if they sufficiently feared the threat of terrorism. But we have a governmental system and a constitution which, so long as they remain intact, prevent one of the main characteristics of fascism, which is the one-party state. Our Supreme Court offers a bulwark against the usurpation of power and the destruction of individual civil rights. There may be a lot of fascist wannabes in the United States, many of whom don't realize that what they want or would tolerate would be a fascist state. But i also think that the United States is far removed from the threat of a fascist take-over. Another key characteristic of fascism is the marriage of the capitalist industrial system with the government. Eisenhower warned us about the rise of a military-industrial complex, and i think we have sufffered as a nation for ignoring that warning. However, the United States remains rich, and has survived even that siphoning off of the government's revenues to line the pockets of "strategic" industries. I frankly don't think we have to worry about this, but it would never do to ignore the threat embodied in a government which caters to the wealthy and attempts to manipulate the mass of the population with the fear of an external threat. So, on the whole, i don't think the United States is endangered by fascism.

to add my own thoughts to what set has stated .

i have no doubt that in any country there are "extremists" of one kind or another - fascists , communists or whatever label is attached to them .
since the united states is such a large country with a very diversified population , it probably is in less danger to be taken over by an extremist government than any other country .

imo the greatest danger for any country to fall into the hands of an extremist movement/government would be a severe and prolonged economic downturn accompanied by large-scale unemployment .
looking around the world , it seems to me that economically unstable countries present the biggest breeding ground for extremists .
when people have lost all hope and come to the point of simply saying : "i'll vote for anyone who promisess something better - no matter what " , that's when there is a great danger of extremists taking hold .

imo germany of the late 1920's - early 1930's presents a good example of what can happen when many people "have lost hope" and are willing to try anything .
it's probably like an extremely sick person falling into the hands of "a healer" who makes promises of a cure but doesn't have to prove it .
when someone says "you must be a believer to be saved from your miserable situation" , it's time to run imo .
hbg

"Breathes there the man with soul so dead, Who never to himself hath said, This is my own, my native land!"
Sir Walter Scott

Often, fiction is stranger than fact, hbg.

The Man Without a Country.

Patriotism is an extreme.

Yes, but our muddle-headed boys writing above weren't aware of these details until you leaked them...thus empowering the enemy.

You were the one needing enlightenment, Joe was just helping you out apparently.

The light of wisdom is cast indiscriminately on all. It is for each individual to decide whether to open their eyes and see the light.

Joe

Increasingly, I'm thinking that the technique demonstrated below may be necessary....

A Clockwork Orange, Blatham? That's one case of classical conditioning that didn't work.

Sadism, as at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, is not done because it works. It's done because it is exciting.