Two Puntuation Questions--Please HELP

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Question One

When using extracts, the Chicago Manual of Style (11th chapter in the fifteenth edition) suggests not putting the extract in quotation marks. What if the quotation is also part of dialogue? Ex:

Mary continued, "Now I will read you a poem.

(Pretend the following is centered. Thanks.)

I bounded down the hallowed halls,
Joy pounding in my chest.
A thousand answers I would seek
From those who know them best.

As air was wafting whiffs of life,
I stepped inside the room.
One tiny window in the cell
Dispelled the quelling gloom.

Should there be an opening quotation mark to indicate that the same speaker is actually reading this? Should there be a closing quotation mark? Or does omitting the quotation mark at the end of the preceding paragraph suffice to let the reader know that the same character is speaking?

Question Two

When a character asks a question while quoting another question, do you end with two question marks surrounded by interior and exterior quotation marks? Or does one question mark stand for both? Ex:

John said, "What should I say when Scott repeatedly asks, 'When will the manuscript be ready?' "

Or

John said, "What should I say when Scott repeatedly asks, 'When will the manuscript be ready?'?"

Thanks!

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Thanks. I got the answers. If anyone wants to know, just ask.

Otherwise, I'll see if I can delete the question in a few hours.

Thanks!

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I'd like to know what you found out and Roberta would probably be very interested. She's having computer problems and will be away a few days... so why don't you tell us all and then leave the question up 'til she can see it, OK?

My take would be to either close the quotes on the first paragraph and then not only indent the poem, but also put it in italics. (I don't know why, but italics always make me think something is being read.) ... OR... put beginning quotes at the beginning of each new stanza and then putting ending quotes at the end of the last stanza.

The last question is even more tricky -- I'm afraid I'd have to go with your second try at punctuating, despite the doubled question marks & quotes.

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Hey, thanks for responding and not leaving me all by myself here!

The second question's answer is that one question mark serves as two.

Hope answers that.

The first one, well, my expert at Charles Darling's web site was really just guessing. I have the question at the Chicago Manual of Style as well, so I hope to hear back from them.

Anyway, Mr. Darling's take is also what the copyeditor did to the manuscript, so it's probably right.

Darling would close the preceding paragraph with quotations and not have any with the extract.

I really like your solution best; that's how the Chicago Manual would handle it say, if it weren't set as an extract. Each new stanza would have a new opening quotation mark, with only one at the end. Slashes go in between the line breaks.

Which sort of begs the question, I mean, if it's all run in together in one paragraph, then, well, do you just plop in an opening quotation mark right in the middle of the paragraph???? Um . . . would that go before or after the slash?????

One of the poems in the ms is run in, well sort of, with the SLASHES, and then, by golly, the copyeditor also marked it as an EXTRACT. It appears blocked in paragraph form and centered in proofs two (?) em spaces from the edges, with one line space before and after.

I KNOW that's wrong, so I sort of feel smart today. Smile

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Quote:

If I were writing this, I would find some other way of attributing
Mary's initial statement to her -- indirectly. Then allow the quotation
of the poem to stand as is -- indented. If not, though, end the
quotation mark with " . . . a poem." Then indent the rest of what she
says.

I'm saying this without checking Chicago or any other resource. I don't
think I've seen this addressed before -- where you're trying to combine
two different types of attribution.

(for Grammar English)
Charles Darling
Professor of English, Webmaster
Capital Community College
950 Main Street
Hartford CT 06103
[860] 906-5191
Tuesday, July 15, 2003
9:56:55 AM
mailto:[email protected]
http://www.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

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I'm glad to hear that only one question mark is necessary. And it is placed befor the two sets of quotation marks?

I don't like the idea of slash marks on the other. When I've seen poetry in a novel, it is set out to look like the poetry it is.

I think Roberta will like this! Thanks, Dupre.

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Quote:

You never want a double punctuation mark. Your first version is
acceptable. The single question mark suffices for both questions.

(for Grammar English)
Charles Darling
Professor of English, Webmaster
Capital Community College
950 Main Street
Hartford CT 06103
[860] 906-5191
Tuesday, July 15, 2003
9:58:59 AM
mailto:[email protected]
http://www.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

origin = Austin, TX
YOUR_QUESTION_WAS = When a character quotes a question within a
question, do you close with two question marks surrounded by interior
and exterior quotation marks? Or does one suffice for both? Ex:

John said, "What should I say when Scott repeatedly asks, 'When will
the manuscript be ready?' "

Or

John said, "What should I say when Scott repeatedly asks, 'When will the manuscript be ready?'?"

Mr. Darling is a grammar guru. The Web site is awesome!

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Yes, to clarify, I like your solution best, that is, with quotation marks opening the extract and opening each stanza, and one to close.

No quotation mark ending the preceding paragraph.

But, I don't think that's how it's supposed to be.

I would argue for it though, because the character is reading the poem. I understand that there's no quotation marks needed to mark the material as quoted material; but the quoted material is being verbally read by a character. For that reason, I believe there should be quotation marks. <sigh> Just not both an interior and an exterior. I wonder if Mr. Darling my question here.

Did you?

I agree with you that run-in poetry is difficult to read. I don't know why they did it, but I can't change that in proofs. Too expensive. I can only change something to make it right. My boss might change it when she sees it, but I can't.

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dupre wrote:

Yes, to clarify, I like your solution best, that is, with quotation marks opening the extract and opening each stanza, and one to close.

No quotation mark ending the preceding paragraph.

But, I don't think that's how it's supposed to be.

That was my second possible way, my first suggestion was to close the initial paragraph and indent & italicise the poetry without any quotation marks.

Quote:

I would argue for it though, because the character is reading the poem. I understand that there's no quotation marks needed to mark the material as quoted material; but the quoted material is being verbally read by a character.

I don't think you normally have to show that some obvous poetry is being read... and I'm here thinking of Tollkien novels. It is obvious they're singing or saying poetry, but... I don't think they have 'em in quotes. Just checked and there are several spots where a paragraph ends and then they sang: followed by italicised, indented poetry. So, not quite the same. Tollkien manages to avoid the construction. (Hmmmmm!)

Quote:

For that reason, I believe there should be quotation marks. <sigh> Just not both an interior and an exterior. I wonder if Mr. Darling my question here.

Did you?

No. I didn't realize that you were thinking there should be extra quotations marks around the poetry... that's what you meant?

Quote:

I agree with you that run-in poetry is difficult to read. I don't know why they did it, but I can't change that in proofs. Too expensive. I can only change something to make it right. My boss might change it when she sees it, but I can't.

Well, I understand that perfectly... the customer or the boss is always right. Using slash marks to delineate poetry has been done, I've seen it, I just think it's icky! :wink:

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Dupre, Sorry I wasn't here to join in the discussion. I knew about the two question marks. As for the rest, I must rereread. I'll be back.

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Quote:

Just checked and there are several spots where a paragraph ends and then they sang: followed by italicised, indented poetry.

I'm wondering if the above construction could be considered indirect, as in

Quote:

Mary crossed over to the podium and read her speech: I am pleased to be here tonight to honor an outstanding person in our community. . . .

Either run in or set as an extract would really be the same indirect grammatical construction. The speech itself becomes, not dialogue, but rather an appositive to the word "speech," even though the reader knows the speech is being read aloud.

This actually happens a lot in fiction, at least the fiction I work with. There are often letters and notes, set as extracts. Sometimes they are read aloud in dialogue, sometimes they are not read aloud, just silently by the character. I couldn't tell you right now if or how they are handled differently.

I am looking forward to Roberta's response.

Thanks for sticking with this, Piffka. I appreciate it.

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Okey dokey. I did my rerereading with respect to question one.

Question One

When using extracts, the Chicago Manual of Style (11th chapter in the fifteenth edition) suggests not putting the extract in quotation marks. What if the quotation is also part of dialogue? Ex:

Mary continued, "Now I will read you a poem.

(Pretend the following is centered. Thanks.)

I bounded down the hallowed halls,
Joy pounding in my chest.
A thousand answers I would seek
From those who know them best.

As air was wafting whiffs of life,
I stepped inside the room.
One tiny window in the cell
Dispelled the quelling gloom.

Should there be an opening quotation mark to indicate that the same speaker is actually reading this? Should there be a closing quotation mark? Or does omitting the quotation mark at the end of the preceding paragraph suffice to let the reader know that the same character is speaking?

1. You could reword the introductory statement so that the poem is not a quote. For example, Mary said she would read the following poem.

2. Question One

Mary continued:

(beginning of extract)
Now I will read you a poem.

(Pretend the following is centered. Thanks.)

"I bounded down the hallowed halls,
Joy pounding in my chest.
A thousand answers I would seek
From those who know them best.

"As air was wafting whiffs of life,
I stepped inside the room.
One tiny window in the cell
Dispelled the quelling gloom."

With this approach, you retain the actual quote from Mary. By including her statement in the extract, you are not putting the extract in quotes; you're putting Mary's quote in quotes. This is not an uncommon occurrence. What's uncommon is that the quote is a poem. And that the actual extract is so teeny weeny. If you consider an extract that is from a magazine article, the issue is clearer, I think. The extracted material from the article is set off and not in quotes; the quotes withing the article are in quotation marks. I believe this is the same principle.

If I had my druthers, I'd go with the option 1. It's cleaner and less strange in dealing with a poem.

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Absolutely fascinating solutions.

The poems from the book are longer. The above poem is part of one of my own, and I thought to spare you. Smile

I like the first solution best, too.

Well, I will pass these on, when I send the proofs back.

Thanks for your help.

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Dupre, Glad to help. And, thanks for the poem. I'm glad the gloom was quelled.

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Here's a link to the whole sad experience:

http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35317#35317

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Thanks, Dupre. I enjoyed the poem. And phooey on the teacher who made you draw a square. Leaves are much more fun. And green is my favorite color.

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Thanks. <blush>

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Two Puntuation Questions--Please HELP

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