proof of no god?: what the holy spirit is/jesus not perfect

you have classified the verse as being chauvinistic. this is your openion, and you should respect the openion of the muslim women who believe that it is not so.

look. there are facts on earth that we should all surrender to, and if we dont... everyything will be messed up.


MAELS AND FEMALES ARE NOT ALIKE.

and because of this, balance can be reached in life. each gender has a certain role in life. and according to these roles God has created males and females.

Men are more powerful, stronger, and thus more capable of work and earning money. Men tend to use logic more than women. Men ( in general ) can be more patient and more capable of handling critical situations although sometimes the opposite happens, yet men are created to have this ability more than women.

on the other hand, we find that women are more tender and soft, and thus they are better at bringing children up, they have more patience with children than men have. women are more emotional.

when both men and women know that each one is better than the other in somethings and thus try to be best at what he is created for; he will play his role in life very effeciently, and balance will be atchieved in life.

Yes, if women were not soft and tender and more emotional than men then life would be ruined, and vice versa for men.

in the family, the same as in any group or community or country or whatever, there must be a leader. and according to the way God created people, naturally men will have to play the role of the leader of the family.

what has the leader of the family to do? he has serve his family, and not make them his slaves as some people would think that the leader hasa to do like that.

that is why, in islam, the man is obliged to bring money, clothes, and food to his wife and childred, and if he doesn't for no reason then he would be punished in the day of judgemnet. the man (as the leader) has to protect his family and make sure that it is living properly and happily.

now each one (the man and the woman) has a distinct role in the family. both have to look after the children, yet the woman has to do most of that. because she has the ability to do that almost perfectly.

children in the family has to obey both: the leader, and the woman, which is like the vice presedent.

but what happens when there are two leaders for a country? everything in the country will be ruined, and the same thing for the family, there is a presedent and a vice presedent, and the vice presedent has to obey the presedent, so that everything goes alright at home.

this in no way makes the man better than the woman. The king of the country is not better than the school teacher. both have different roles in the country, and if one of them stops then success will not happen. why is the king a king? and why is the teacher a teacher? because every one is good at being what he is.

fcourse there can be bad teachers and bad kings, and also bad husbands and bad wives. these are special cases that should be treated seperately, but for the general case, if both men and women were good, then men would be better at being leaders, and women would be better at being vice presedents.

if we look at the verse again, what does it say?


""YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. (ok up to here?)Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. (this should be or else everything will be a mess, the vice presedent must obedient unless the presedent is crazy then the vice presedent does not have to obey him)As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). ""

now, it seems that this last part is the one you dislike. what should the leader do when his follower does not obey him? it was not left for men to decide, God said that the man should first talk to the woman and tell her that what she is doing is wrong, ie advice here in a nice way. and then if she still doesnt want to do the correct thing, then the next step would be that the man should stop going to bed with her for some time. this might make her think again about what she is doing. OFCOURSE, the verse is speaking about the woman who is doing a mistake and insisting. but what if the woman still did not want to obey the man? God says that the man has the right to beat the woman lightly in order to make her feel that she is exceeding her limits.

but what does lightly mean? the prophet mohammad peace be upon him explained this. he shouldn't harm her. his hand must not go up high and beat, assume that there is a book between his arm and chest and wanted to beat, if the book fall down, then that means that he has harmed her. this is only to explain what (should not rais his hand high) means.

So the beating, is just a sumbolic thing, which will convey to the woman that the man is really angry. how would a mother beat her little child? would she break his hand? no, she will only beat his hand (lightly) to tell him that she is really angry. the same thing is for the man with his wife.

again, the verse is speaking about the woman who is doing a mistake and refusing to correct it.

you might say: but what if the man who is wrong and the woman is correct. yes this might happen, and it happens a lot. what the woman will have to do is: first talk to the man and try to convince him that he is doing something wrong. if insists, then she would try all possible ways to fix the problem. if he refuses and insists then she is free to choose:
she can either be patient and try more to fix the problem
or she can go to her father, or her husbands father, or her uncle, or any of her elder family members like her brother, and try to make them correct what her husband is doing. if everything fails and the problem resists then if she wills she can ask for divorce.


I firmly believe that this is the only way balance and success in the family can occur. otherwise, I believe that the family will not be successful.

maybe you have a different opinion, if yes, then please tell me how you believe the family has to be, and how the husband/wife has to act when the other insists on a mistake.

I believe that this is logic.

but maybe you dont like logic. if so, then please tell me your illogical way of behaviour in the family. it might appeal to me !!

sorry for being long.

waiting for your response

barhoooooom, my first response to your post was to ask, "Is this guy for real?" but on the off chance that you really believe such nonsense and are not just pulling our collective leg:

Yes, men and women are different, and everyone has roles to play in life. But most of the roles you play in life should depend on your abilities, skills and knowledge instead of being arbitrarily assigned according to gender.

1. Few jobs these days depend on brute strength, and those that do are generally (with the exception of pro football) low-paying menial work. Women are quite as capable of being doctors, engineers, presidents, managers, scientists, or anything else.

2. I am a woman, but I am more logical than any man I know, including my husband.

3. Men are not "created" to be more capable of handling critical situations. Please cite your source for this absurd notion.

4. Some men are better at child-rearing than women. One of the women I work with has a husband who stays home with the kids, and he is much better at it than she would be.

5. Perhaps men suppress their emotions more (this may be a factor in heart attacks and ulcers), but that doesn't mean they don't feel them.

6. "God" did not create men to be leaders. That belief was established by men who did not want their authority challenged.

7. I am amazed at the egos of men who think that women can be kept in line by threatening to withhold sex. That threat may keep men in line, but women do not think with their reproductive organs.

8. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BEAT ANYONE ELSE, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!

9. Women should not have to rely on a father, uncle, or brother to defend them. Their husbands should respect them enough to work things out PEACEFULLY and learn to compromise.

I feel sorry for you and your culture. By denying the humanity of women, you have lost out on the richness of hearts and minds that are the equal of yours in every way except sanctimonious arrogance.

ok, jsut believe that I exist.

and not only that.

believe that all muslim women believe in what I believe. you can ask them if you want. ask them and then tell me what you hear.

look. if you want to know the proof that what I say is better than what you say. just look at the statistcs of the adultry, rape, and divorce in your societies, and compare them to my society.


in my my socity, they are almost not presesnt. althoug divorce happens sometimes, yet it is nothing when we compare it to your place.

have a look at these statistics:



Somewhere in America, a woman is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes, accordingto the U.S. Department of Justice.
In 1996, 307,000 women were the victim of rape, attempted rape or sexualassault. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics,U.S. Department of Justice, 1997.]
Between 1995 and 1996, more than 670,000 women were the victim of rape,attempted rape or sexual assault. [National Crime Victimization Survey.Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1997.]

Silent Victims
One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and that they fear reprisal from the assailant.
In 1996, only 31% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials - less than one in every three. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1997.]
Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant. [Violence againstWomen. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% byacquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. [Violence against Women. Bureauof Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]


oh, hte net is just full of these things, this is only about rapes. there are hundreds of other reports about the prevelance of women/men cheating their spouses. or about divorce. and the other family diseases.

this is the fruit of not following the correct words of God.

look at the real Islamic society and tell me if these things happen in it or not.

for the points you mentioned, I prefer not to answer them. I feel that there is no use of doing so, because when I say that women are more emotional or more capable of bringing children up you feel insulted.

funny

truth
Barhooooom, I have not read, only scanned, your post and that of Terry. Before I give your argument the full attention it deserves I must point out, in repsonse to something I saw in your text. I think that women AND men in Islam as well as elsewhere are conditioned (some more than others) to either believe that the roles assigned them are legitimate or to at least say so in public. From what I've seen of the muslim women in the U.S. (and many of them, from Iran especially) many do not accept the roles assigned to them by the traditional culture. More women are assaulted by men in America than in many Muslim socieites, true. But I think it can be said that women in Islam ARE ASSAULTED CONTINUOUSLY BY THE CULTURE ITSELF. I am a cultural relativist, meaning that I do not feel I should evaluate other cultures from the perspective of mine. But after talking to "modernized" muslim women in my country, this is the conclusion I have taken from them.
Yes, every two minutes a woman is assaulted in the U.S., and she's getting very mad.

Barhoom,

I don't think you've answered my point raised on another thread about Islam and "morality" involving Mohammed's intercourse with his nine year old wife when he was in his fifties. I'm sure we are all interested in your explanation of this.

truth
Oh, and Barhoooom, I must admit that OUR culture has assaulted American women and that is only beginning to end now.

terry,

I have to apologize for not answering your points in the previous post. I was mistaken about ignoring them. I will try to answer them later a long with the one about the prophet mohammad peace be upon him. just give me some time, I have a lot of home works and reports to finish.

wait for me.


JLNobody,

u too, I have some comments on your current post. but not now, lators.

(Barhoom.

I have just realised you are a teenager and I therefore apologize somewhat for the force of my attack. )

barhoooooom, If you think that all Muslim women believe as you do, I suspect that you are living in a fool's paradise.

Is it not possible that rape and adultery are under-reported in Islamic societies because the consequences are so harsh?


Are you seriously saying that rape, adultery and divorce are the result of women not being forced to comply with your idea of suitable God-given roles?

I suppose brainwashing women to serve their husbands and families might reduce adultery and divorce, and barring them from participating in society reduces the opportunity for other men to rape and assault them.

But how do you explain the levels of rape and adultery in this country and others before women had the freedom to work outside of the home? Do you think that women who have non-traditional jobs deserve to be assaulted and raped? Has it ever occurred to you that men sexually assault women for many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with her occupation?

Does it not seem at all hypocritical for you to blame the victims and demand severe limits to their freedom, instead of asking what can be done to men to stop them from seducing their neighbors' wives and assaulting women?

I will be looking for your responses to my previous points.

truth
It seems to me, Terry, that in Macho cultures--particularly of the Muslim societies (particularly those where you see virtually only men on the street) and to a slightly smaller extent the mediteranean and Latin American societies, men attack each other by seducing their wives, sisters, and maybe even their mothers. Hence, men place great "protective" controls on their women. In some muslim societies, I have heard, for a woman even to be alone with a man not of her family, is to be guilty of adultery--the myth goes that they cannot resist a man and that to be alone with one or to show their face they permit their seduction or seduce men who also have no sexual self-control. All women must by means of the veil or seclusion in the home cooperate with their family men in this respect. This is partly stereotype, but from what I've seen it aint far from the truth.

sorry for being so late in answering.

first terry:

you said:
1. Few jobs these days depend on brute strength, and those that do are generally (with the exception of pro football) low-paying menial work. Women are quite as capable of being doctors, engineers, presidents, managers, scientists, or anything else.


you didn't just get what I mean. look.
(1) there are few jobs that require strength.
(2) women get pregnent for 9 months, and have to look after new babies.
(3) it is scientifically prooved that women during their monthly cycle are not in a good mood.
(4) women cannot defend themselves as good as men can when they are attacked by thieves.
(5) women can get raped but men cant.

for the above reasons and some others men are more capable of work than women. look I said MORE, this does not mean that women can not work. if you try to tell me that women are more capable than men of work then you are mistaken. and also if you try to say that women are equally capable of work with men then you are mistaken.

if either men or women has to go out to work and the other stay with the kids, then who do u think should do each. I think that men should go out to work, and women look after the children, God made them get pregnent and gave them breasts to feed the children. he did not do that for the man, because each has a different role.

not having the same role as the man is not an insult and is not something bad, on the contrary, sticking to your role is an honor.

what if some women go out to work? ok so what? I just said that work fits for men more than women.


you said:
2. I am a woman, but I am more logical than any man I know, including my husband.



:-) you really made me laugh when I read this. come on, I am not trying to say that women are stupid and act illogically. all I said was that men think in a systematic way more than women. this does not mean that women dont think that way. it is only a MORE. that is why we see more women excell in some subjects, and men in some others. why do we have more men in engineering than women? why do we have more women in humanities? why do we have almost equal number of men and women in medicine? it all has to do with the way men and women think, women "maybe" like to memorise more than men, while men "maybe" like to solve problems.

this is what I meant by saying that men are more logical in their thinking than women.

you said:
4. Some men are better at child-rearing than women. One of the women I work with has a husband who stays home with the kids, and he is much better at it than she would be.


yes, and some math teachers in school are better in language than english teachers. this can happen, but it does not mean any thing.


you said:
6. "God" did not create men to be leaders. That belief was established by men who did not want their authority challenged.

it seems that you really consider it an insult to not be a leader.



you said:
7. I am amazed at the egos of men who think that women can be kept in line by threatening to withhold sex. That threat may keep men in line, but women do not think with their reproductive organs.


again, you think that when the wife insists on a mistake and does not wants to correct and the husband tells her that he will not have sex with her again unless she corrects herself, you think that this is all wrong, maybe then you prefer divorce? you dont like that the man tries his best to fix the problem without going strait to divorce? I really dont know why you are so angry from this. you dont have to tell me that women dont think from their reproductive organs, but this is a way of telling the woman that her husband is angry and that she should rethink of what she is doing.



you said:
9. Women should not have to rely on a father, uncle, or brother to defend them. Their husbands should respect them enough to work things out PEACEFULLY and learn to compromise.



yes, this is true, and this is what islam says, yet this is not always the case. you will not always find a good husband, some times the husband is really bad and the wife does not want to get divorce and she cant convince him to fix the problem, what can she do? he is not listening to her? is it a shame to ask her uncle or father to talk to him? I dont know why you feel that this is shameful.

look, I am not speaking about a general case. in all of my previous post I spoke about one special case, which is: the woman does a mistake and insists, what should the man do?
and then I spoke about the opposite, and said that she should talk to him and tell him not do it and try to convince him, and if he doesnt agree then she can talk to her family to try with him too.

I dont see anything wrong with that. and I for the case when the woman is wrong, I want to say:

WHY DO U ALWAYS ASSUME THAT THE MAN IS THE ONE WHO IS WRONG.

look, I repeat again and again, all of the steps that I mentioned were for the woman who is doing mistakes. like she keeps teaching the kids to lie.



"I feel sorry for you and your culture. By denying the humanity of women, you have lost out on the richness of hearts and minds that are the equal of yours in every way except sanctimonious arrogance"


ok, thanks for caring to feel something about me and my culture.


sigh.......... I am too bored of this subject. I think I will stop here although I did not answer most of your questions, not becuase I have no answer, but because I am fed up, I have answered the same questions in other places hundreds of times.

if you really want an answer to your questions, then the best thing to do is to talk to a "REAL" muslim personally.

barhoooooom:

(1) Yes, that is what I said: there are few jobs that require strength. So what is your point?

(2) Not all women get pregnant (infertile or childless by choice) and many of those who do work throughout their pregnancies and afterwards.

(3) Please cite the "scientific proof" that all women have mood disorders related to menses. And then scientifically explain why men have bad moods.

(4) What does the ability to defend yourself against thieves have to do with working?

(5) You are wrong. Men can and do get raped, usually by other men.


Couples should make their own decisions about who looks after the children and who works. Many people choose to bottle feed their babies and have grandparents or other caregivers look after them.


It is not an honor to be forced to stay home and look after children when you could win a Nobel Prize (or any other kind of fame and fortune) if you were allowed to work in your chosen field.


The mix of men and women in different fields has more to do with culture than anything else. It is not so much how we think, but what we think that determines career choices. At one time women were barred from colleges. When I was young, help wanted ads were segregated by gender and women who worked were most often secretaries, nurses, or teachers. Today we can be CEOs, doctors, principals, scientists, whatever we want. I was the only woman in my engineering classes, but now 20% are female and the percentage has been rising (in 1990 only 16% were female). 41% of graduate students in science and engineering are female, up from 34% in 1990.


Why does it "not mean anything" that some individuals are better than others in certain functions? Shouldn't people do what they are good at instead of arbitrarily being assigned roles?


I consider it an insult that you think men have some God-given right to rule over women.


Withholding sex to make a point is stupid and probably ineffective. Assuming that I am angry about what you said when I was actually laughing at you just goes to show how out of touch you really are.


I suspect that you did not give up out of boredom, but just realized that your position is indefensible.

Terry

Thanks for that reminder that I should never get on the wrong side of you.

Damn, you are good at this.

truth
Yeah, Frank. She's so smart I thought she was a man.

Re: truth


Oh, JL, you are really asking for trouble!!! :wink:

truth
Thank God she's smart enough to know I'm kidding. Right,Terry?

Thanks, Frank. We always seem to be on the same side, so you don't have to worry.

JL,

The Catholic Church is lying to the world.

truth
Wilso, is it obvious that the Church's only concern is to prevent contraception, even if it costs the lives of many adults from aids. This position reminds me of the pro-lifers who would ruin adult lives (of the born) for the sake of potential lives (the unborn). Both sides show minimal regard for the lives of the born. Has anybody here expressed the suspicion that the Catholic church abhors contraception solely because it contravenes their recruitment efforts? That is to say, their greatest success in maintaining and recruiting new believers is among the poor and ignorant. And it is this population that has the highest rates of reproduction. Inhibit reproduction and limit recruitment. Throughout Latin America Protestant sects have made great headway in recruiting the poor. One day when the protestants have achieved dominance in these areas, I wonder if they will also condemn contraception.