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Mon 14 Jul, 2003 01:41 pm
I used to be christian and as such acknowledge the fact that people may choose to believe in what they want. More often than not they believe what sounds good to them no matter what the evidence is. I also acknowledge that there's no point in me trying to persuade a practising christian because as I have read the bible i know that the people who wrote the bible covered their tracks verry well, they protected against people like me; "It is a sin to need proof to believe, a true believer will believe without proof" "beware of people who will try to persuade you" and "a christian by themself will weaken whereas a christian amoung others will stay strong". I Cant remember the exact wording but its something like that.
For those who are not religious or havnt been, God comes in 3 forms - God, jesus and the holy spirit. God is, well... god, he's the dude you use to wish for things to happen. Jesus is the one you ask for forgiveness from, tell him all your little secrets and form a close relationship with. The Holy spirit is love, the holy spirit is the tight feeling in your that you get when you are in love. When christians form a bond with jesus, they experience this love (holy spirit) and accept it as proof of god. When you are in love with your partner, you can see them, hear them, feel them, smell them, taste them, you truely believe that this person is real and that you are having a relationship with and it sparks off the love chemicals in your brain (for baby making purposes but thats another story). Now, a christian can trick thier brian into releasing this chemical by simply truely believing they are having a relationship with an imaginary friend - jesus. Infact jesus would be the perfect partner, you can tell him all your lil secrets and trust he wont tell ne1 else, he will never disagree with you no matter how wrong you may be and he'll never talk back, perfect, bring on the love. This is why, for all you non-christians, its often said that jesus is the answer - he's the answer to a happy life, he's the answer to depression, he's the answer to stress, he brings unconditional love into your life and increases your quality of life dramatically. So is the holy spirit god? no, its just part of human nature, its just what people do, the idea of the holy spririt (love from relationship with jesus) offers no proof of god. Infact i think i just disproved the existance of god in the form of the holy spirit.
But at the same time i do not criticise people who choose to be religious, i know how wonderful the illusion of the holy spirit can be and i have no problem with people who wish to experience it as i once did. To those religious people the belief is whats important, not the existance of god.
The other, less lengthy, idea is the idead of jesus being perfect to be false. If humans are imperfect, not all humans have the same interpretation of righteousness as each other and jesus is perfect - y does he agree with everything imperfect humans say? If 2 people are in conflict, by definition both cannot be in the right, perhapps 1 can but mostly neither of them are, and they both tell jesus about it, how can jesus agree with both of them and be 100% on both of thier sides and believe that both of them are doing everything exactly right? This makes it impossible for him to be perfectly righteous... or maybe he just doesnt exist.
I have alot of other reasons y i am no longer chriistian, such as the test book style cult leader tactics jesus used and the exageration and sensationalising written media creates (bible stories) But im not going to go into those... Ah bugger it, i'll do it real quick - Jesus was cult leader. preyed on the hopless and malnurished, fed them (broke bread, prolly fed about 20 ppl with a couple sliced loafs - bible exagerates it plus many versions have come out, each exagerating more and more)), if u were slave with no hope, y wouldnt u join his side?
I think you have bitten off more than you can chew.
Your logic is not bad -- it simply is absent.
I was just fixin' to warn you about the level of decorum your post would probably get from some here skotup, but I see there's no need.
Welcome to A2K.
skotup, WELCOME to A2K. Read your post with interest; IMHO that your take on christianity comes pretty close to the truth for many that 'believe." I've always seen it as "too much baggage" to carry around for the rest of my life. Didn't have the capacity to 'rationalize' all of the contradictions in the bible - just didn't know how. c.i.
like i said, people believe in what sounds good to them, no amount of evidence can change the beliefs of a christian, especially ideas that have been strongly embedded for about 50 generations now. I do expect strong objection, but only from christians who are trying to strengthen/prostect their faith and others faith. Its expected, im not going to try to argue with christians, this post wasnt really meant for them. Cos like i said, i dont have a problem with people who chose to comfort themself by believing in something, weather it be christianity, islam, buddist or what ever. Tollerance is the key.
Is your belief simply "what sounds good" to you? Or is this only applicable to the beliefs of others?
no, to every1, what i wrote above doesnt sound good to me at all, i used to be christian.
Its like when some one does a little bit of psycological profiling on you and hits it right on the head. They might say something like "you seem like the person who lacks support..." and you dont want the person to know this so you'll instinctfully and verry quickly deny it straight up and you wont believe it yaself, even tho you've known it all your life you've never once acknowledged it.
skotup wrote:like i said, people believe in what sounds good to them,
Sounds to me as though that is what is happening with you here.
Quote:no amount of evidence can change the beliefs of a christian, especially ideas that have been strongly embedded for about 50 generations now. I do expect strong objection, but only from christians who are trying to strengthen/prostect their faith and others faith. Its expected, im not going to try to argue with christians, this post wasnt really meant for them. Cos like i said, i dont have a problem with people who chose to comfort themself by believing in something, weather it be christianity, islam, buddist or what ever. Tollerance is the key.
Good. Because I am no Christian. I am an agnostic -- and just as I think their...speculations...about what the reality is -- is suspect, I think your speculations about what the reality is -- is suspect also.
In fact, right now, yours is even more suspect to me.
yeh, when are you gonna pull the plug and escape to "ironic turnabout"
Im on vacation so Im looking for something light and humorous. If your going for humor, why not discuss how the various eds of THE BIBLE got approved and printed. Now thats entertainment.
skotup wrote:like i said, people believe in what sounds good to them, no amount of evidence can change the beliefs of a christian, especially ideas that have been strongly embedded for about 50 generations now. I do expect strong objection, but only from christians who are trying to strengthen/prostect their faith and others faith. Its expected, im not going to try to argue with christians, this post wasnt really meant for them. Cos like i said, i dont have a problem with people who chose to comfort themself by believing in something, weather it be christianity, islam, buddist or what ever. Tollerance is the key.
Like in the words of the father of psychology, Sigmund Freud "Inside human nature there's something that inclines us to be false the things that could cause us harm to accept as true, & this tendency easily finds arguments to reject the thing that would cause harm"
Tollerance really is the key, but the big problem is how to apply it :wink:
skotup, granted that the God of the Bible is clearly imperfect, Jesus broke several commandments, and the holy spirit committed adultery, but why should any of them have to be perfect in order to exist? The Greek and Roman gods were quite human in their foibles, but no one held that against them.
So what if the holy spirit is part of human nature? How does that disprove the existence of God?
What if there is a god but it is not anything like the Judeo-Christian concept?
If there is Christian ideal of tolerance it runs into trouble with two conflicting biblical commands. Firstly, it is said that those who have not accepted Christ as their saviour and made a leap of faith will face damnation (eternal burning or some other unpleasant fate.) A second, problematic issue for Christians is that in the light of this fate for the unsaved they are to love others as they love themselves. In order to obey both orders they are, by deduction, obligated to convert others and to spread the gospel. Yet this is very difficult to do while maintaining a tolerant attitude when the biblical weltaanschaaung is so black and white.
All human descriptions of god are what is imperfect. c.i.
I understand and appreciate your questions and comments because I myself experience such things in my life.I'm not a Christian but a Hindu from India but my dissapointments and doubts about religion are just the same.One thing any religionists does't tolerate is questions and proof request about God,Prayer and customs.I beleive that the possiblity of knowing the truth about God or anything for that matter is to reject assumptions and demand proof.Simply put ,be couragious to get out religion first and seek answers yourself
Christain
To start off skotup, I dont believe you were ever a “Saved” Christian in the first place (I know i cant judge and say you were never a "Saved" Christian because thats between you and GOD). However if you knew any truth about being a “Saved” Christian you would know that to be a ”Saved” Christian you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior, and once you've been saved and you've received your salvation you can't lose it. If you didn’t do anything to earn it, you can’t do anything to lose it. I get my doubts about your conversion because in the Bible there is one unforgivable sin, which is the one you just committed Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT. In Matt 12:22-32 it talks about this sin. This scripture indicates that a person who Blasphemies the HOLY SPIRIT is neither a “Saved” Christian or will ever become a “Saved” Christian. No. A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-28) actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." Besides, it says in 2 Cor. 5:17 that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different, no longer slaves to the old nature (Romans 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
There is no biblical support for a believer committing this sin. It just hasn’t happened. Also, if you are worried that you may have committed the sin and can’t be forgiven, then don’t be concerned. If you are worrying about it, then you haven’t committed it. If you are worried about it, then that is a sign that you have not committed it. If you had, you wouldn’t be concerned. So as a “Saved” Christian myself I doubt that you never experienced what being a “Saved” Christian is all about. So you feelings may be true only because you never knew the real thing. If you were truly saved then welcome to the family of GOD, and i'll see you in heaven, because nothing you can do can seperate you from GOD.
And to anyone else that believes that the bible is contradictory let me know what you think is contradictory and I will explain it to you.
shaunx to reply to you Matt Slick on his web-site states it very well
“As Christians we must be loving and tolerant. But, again, that does not mean that we must forfeit the truth that has once for all been delivered to the Saints (Jude 3). I am not advocating hatred and condemnation. On the contrary. I am advocating that the Bible, as the only inspired word of God, says we are to love our enemies and pray for them that persecute us (Matt. 5:44). This is the essence of tolerance and is best exemplified in the life of Christ who forgave and healed so many -- even though they did not deserve it. He was merciful and we need to be just as merciful and kind.
Religious tolerance is a vital part of getting along in America. We need to practice it better. But, we also need to fight for the faith and not back down from the truth. Deliver this truth with love.”
Does your god really exist?
To these sorts of things I always respond with a similar answer. If somebody can provide me with a good reason why not to, I will seriously consider it.
Does God exist?
I think that if I say yes, I am a fool.
I also think that if I say no, I am equally foolish.
The existence of this sort of thing, as far as I can tell, cannot be proven by any means. It is just there, and if you accept it, you do so on faith, and if you do not, then it is for the same reason.
Those on either side who hand wave and make vulgar gestures to the other, saying that they dont know what their opponents are talking about, are most likely wasting their time.
If a beleiver says to me: You must beleive in God, for God is Lord and holy etc etc, then their time is wasted, for beleif in this is an internal thing, and you cannot force faith on somebody. If a I say to the beleiver: "How can you buy into that @#$& !?" Then I am being an idiot hypocrite, stating, based on _faith_ in no god, that faith in God is wrong.
Talking about contradictions in the bible, however, is a different matter.
Well, I will address the original post with an open mind. I happen to agree that it is the human interperetation of supposed teachings that really messes it up for people. As for Jesus, if one accepts that there was a historical Jesus, my guess is that he was just a nice dude trying to help a few people out, and would never have wanted to be a leader of anything, especially a cult, but sometimes, these things are forced on the well-meaning.
I have never seen enough evidence to verify Jesus actually existed as described by preachers and Bibles. I have always felt he was most likely an amalgam of certain men and notions of the time. I think Jung made sense in that he saw Jesus as an archetypal image, for whether or not he existed in the flesh, he has lived in the human psyche for 2,000 years. He represents a step in the evolution of the human mind: Not "Eye for eye", but, rather, "Love one another."
edgar, I shall always remain Jung at heart
I especially like his 'Psychology and Alchemy'. Fascinating treatise on Christian mysticism and it's relation to modern (at the time) psychology.
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