proof of no god?: what the holy spirit is/jesus not perfect

Quote:

The existence of this sort of thing, as far as I can tell, cannot be proven by any means. It is just there, and if you accept it, you do so on faith, and if you do not, then it is for the same reason.

I do not agree with this.

My disbelief in God is based on rational thought and reason, not on an undefined term that means little to some and a great deal to others.

I will explain my belief in order to justify my comment above.

Since God is, by definition and according to religious accounts by people and words, omniscient then why do anything? If he truly has all the knowledge of the Universe, which would make sense seeing as how He was rumored to have created the Universe and you can not create what is not within your power, than why would he need to create people when he already knows what will come of his creation, remembers he is all knowing and he is not limited by the same restraints we are, i.e. time.

So if God knew what would come of his creation before he created itthen why create it? Why go to a Baseball game when you know the score will be 10-2? There is no RTIONAL reason to do anything if you know for absolute certainty what the outcome will be. Now, God is rumored to be a rational being, but how can that be when he made us?

I hope that was clear. If it was not I apologies but I have not had to explain my beliefs in some time.

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Re: Christain

ManOfGOD wrote:

To start off skotup, I dont believe you were ever a "Saved" Christian in the first place (I know i cant judge and say you were never a "Saved" Christian because thats between you and GOD). However if you knew any truth about being a "Saved" Christian you would know that to be a "Saved" Christian you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior, and once you've been saved and you've received your salvation you can't lose it. If you didn't do anything to earn it, you can't do anything to lose it. I get my doubts about your conversion because in the Bible there is one unforgivable sin, which is the one you just committed Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT. In Matt 12:22-32 it talks about this sin. This scripture indicates that a person who Blasphemies the HOLY SPIRIT is neither a "Saved" Christian or will ever become a "Saved" Christian. No. A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-28) actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." Besides, it says in 2 Cor. 5:17 that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different, no longer slaves to the old nature (Romans 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
There is no biblical support for a believer committing this sin. It just hasn't happened. Also, if you are worried that you may have committed the sin and can't be forgiven, then don't be concerned. If you are worrying about it, then you haven't committed it. If you are worried about it, then that is a sign that you have not committed it. If you had, you wouldn't be concerned. So as a "Saved" Christian myself I doubt that you never experienced what being a "Saved" Christian is all about. So you feelings may be true only because you never knew the real thing. If you were truly saved then welcome to the family of GOD, and i'll see you in heaven, because nothing you can do can seperate you from GOD.

And to anyone else that believes that the bible is contradictory let me know what you think is contradictory and I will explain it to you.

shaunx to reply to you Matt Slick on his web-site states it very well
"As Christians we must be loving and tolerant. But, again, that does not mean that we must forfeit the truth that has once for all been delivered to the Saints (Jude 3). I am not advocating hatred and condemnation. On the contrary. I am advocating that the Bible, as the only inspired word of God, says we are to love our enemies and pray for them that persecute us (Matt. 5:44). This is the essence of tolerance and is best exemplified in the life of Christ who forgave and healed so many -- even though they did not deserve it. He was merciful and we need to be just as merciful and kind.
Religious tolerance is a vital part of getting along in America. We need to practice it better. But, we also need to fight for the faith and not back down from the truth. Deliver this truth with love."

Is is possible for someone to be "Saved" and later reject the concept of g-d (or, more specifically, Jesus)?

To steal an idea from mark twain, heaven sounds rather boring. No sex, not much thought, not much to study, lots of music no one really likes. Good clean sunshine. Eternity.
If this is what people really wanted, wouldn't it be their preference on earth?
Heaven is a good offer for those without much to hope for in their life, a lot of turbulance, they can dream of a future with promise. Especially good for slaves. The egyptian slaves were told they would go to the happy field of food when they died if they worked hard.

Maybe better than the other Christian alternative -heaven- would be getting tortured for the rest of eternity (I belive, according to Dante' by your worst nightmares). But at least that would be interesting. One day being poked in the eye with a stick, the next waiting on the telephone to get in touch with SBC.

You may be interested in a book called "Letters from the Earth," by Mark Twain. Letters From the Earth
Also, have you read any C.S. Lewis?

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Re: Christain

ManOfGOD wrote:

A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again, made a new creation, and received eternal life actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot.
There is no biblical support for a believer committing this sin. It just hasn?t happened.

Well that's all very reassuring; what gave you the idea that 'sin' could be of such importance to those of us who do not 'commit' them?

Let's coin a phrase:

"The 'unborn again' 'nonchristian' " Shocked

It's only fair; if there's one born ('again') every minute Rolling Eyes

; some of them have to eventually see the light Laughing

(in spite of the prerequisites)! Twisted Evil

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and welcome to all the new 'hatchlings';

now just spit that shell out, and get on with it! Laughing

oh and, " waiting on the telephone to get in touch with SBC."
nice touch PortalS; Very Happy

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Re: Christain

ManOfGOD wrote:

However if you knew any truth about being a "Saved" Christian you would know that to be a "Saved" Christian you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior, and once you've been saved and you've received your salvation you can't lose it. If you didn't do anything to earn it, you can't do anything to lose it. I get my doubts about your conversion because in the Bible there is one unforgivable sin, which is the one you just committed Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT. In Matt 12:22-32 it talks about this sin. This scripture indicates that a person who Blasphemies the HOLY SPIRIT is neither a "Saved" Christian or will ever become a "Saved" Christian.

Which is ridiculous, of course. There was a time when I certainly did accept Jesus as my personal savior and was as "saved" as anyone else. Of course, years later, I came to my senses and discovered Christianity was a sham and the Holy Spook can take a flying leap for all I care (which of course, since it's a figment of your imagination, it can't do a whole lot)

You're arguing the rather ridiculous "once saved, always saved" argument which is only valid if the individual never changes their mind. Of course, if they do, most Christians start in with the "oh, he was never a *TRUE* Christian then..."

*yawn*

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Sounds like you put too much stock in the bible. Sounds like you haven't figured out that the story of Jesus, the NT in its entirety, are the words of dead men. What Jesus 'did' or did not do is the only point of the church, which was the focus of the dead men who built it.

Point being, the NT sells the story of Jesus and wraps the church of Rome up in it. The people who subscribe to the NT subscribe to words of dead men. 'Jesus' didn't write a single page, and he's dead too.

Good thing you're no longer a christian. You have finally seen 'the light'. Christianity is a sham, and has been from the beginning. It's the biggest pyramid scheme the world has ever seen.

And the only people truly aware of this are the people who established christianity themselves: The Roman Catholics. They are the ones raking in the dough. The denominational or 'protestant' churches and their wealthy preachers are peanuts in a field of elephants.

'Creflo Dollar' and those like him, ain't got nuttin on the RCC.

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this is how i see it
if you ask me no one has true faith in any thing. do you really know that this worlt that you live in is real? think matrix hypothetically. besides we are beings that are just like the rest of the dimension around us. we are constantily changing. on top of that we can take any writing and make it to mean what we want it to mean. for instance, some one could justify murder undre the bible, like that priest who killed the abortionist and his body guard.
look its wrong for people to push their beliefs on others. for instance our current laws. its all formed by christian related belivers. they restrict the freedoms that we as humans should have, THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. look at europe, the only reason the drug laws are experience any reform at all(mainly the uk, and the netherlands, etc..) is because the chruch is losing its power. they think it is right to make others follow thier system of morals. we all are differant. ]
i am very tolerant of what people believe in, and apparently you cant be a good christian if you are. thats what they tell me. i cant except any ones view as a valid one if it does not agree with me. bull crap. i like a good debate, but i dont except anyone to see from my eyes, mostly because im the only one who knows what i see.

i agree with all of you who have said that those of faith have not seen the light. the problem with that is almost anything we could say of them they could say of us. i am your reflection. when you get pissed at me i get pissed to. they tell me that i am disalusioned and that i am blind. call me all kinds of names and feed me all kinds of malarkie. i am not one to resort to that kind of reasoning, it reviels weakness in reasoning. i am reasonable, thats why i have changed. i dont expect any aspect of my self to stay the same. i accecpt what i am and move on.
look i may sound crazy, religion is a result of evolutional thought. out thought process was jolted by drugs(hallucinogenic, mainly) before recorded history. i cant prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but there is some fairly credible evidence out there. any good christian will say any thing that doesnt support thier train of thought will be a fabrication of the devil himself, ultimatily. but what of all those belivers who have fabricated evidence to prove their religion. i see so much fabrications by those of the faith, that it literaly shows how disalusiond any popular thought is. on top of that they will repeat the same evidence over from person.
am i wrong to ask questions? am i wrong to look all around me with an open mind? why is that so frowned apon by some religions? why do we need to worship something we cant even know to be true or not? why dont these christian faith have the answers that they profess to have? why does it result in a baisc intolerable train of thought? why are the gods we worship so flawed and human, no matter what you would like to say they are? if god was perfect he surely woulnt be in the form of a human. i think its purpose is so people can easily identify with the concept.

i know that my thinking is rather bouncy, and theres probally many spelling errors and so forth. so set me right and ill hapily clarify to the best of my ability. oh yeah, mainly i am of agnostic thinking, but there is many things in human history that will point you towards the idea that there is a spirit world out there. what i said about drugs, well that is no more than a short cut. with the right training one can achieve the same results. all you have to do is read about indiginous cultures, both recent and those predatinf christianity, even any sort of organzed religion. besides theres a hint of some sort of drug usage in all, or at least almost all of any faith, following, what ever. the thing about that is that it is so hidden that it is taking generations for the truth about these kind of things to surface. and those who can agree with me are, apparently, as crazy and disalusioned as i. well whatever one might say.

speak free, and the reality of it will be discovered..... :wink:

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been ages since ive been here, so many replies, i got to holyman's 1st paragraph and had to respond, im sure i'll get to everything else later.

Blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT, the unforgiveable sin. Im sure i spoke of how the bible protects against people like me. Its basically saying if you ever doubt the existance of god, ya goi to hell. But, if you doubt the existance of god, what practical purpose does it have to tell that person they are going to hell? Cos they 1st have to believe it exists in order to believe they are going to hell. Just like a christian, no where did you argue nor discuss what i said, instead just quoted parts from the bible to strengthen my arguement. I think i said in my initial post, when i was explaining how the bible protects against people like me - "to need proof is a sin" and you just quoted the part of the bible i was refering to. That part of the bible indicates how christianity is a classic classic cult. The people who wrote the bible used classic cult techniques. Preying on the malnuritioned slaves without hope, the vunerable - feed them (break bread). So believe... and dont you dare disbelieve cos you'll go to hell. /mean while jesus and the dudes that wrote the bible are sitting back goin "oh yeah, bring on the quality of life, idolise me, gimmie power." yer yer evern tho they were eventually killed.

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OK, I never have the time to read everyones posts...I'm sorry; I just read the first few and respond...Oh well; shoot me I guess..
I believe that religion is two things...A) just an organized system of control. That it was created with the sole intention of getting people scared into doing the right thing...I for one don't need to be coaxed into doing good with threats of hell and promises of heaven...B) look back across religions of the past. They tend to explain everything we don't understand about the world in a rather fantastic way don't they? Native American religions in particular take simple things like rain and sun and personify them...trying to simplify the universe so that they are capable of comprehending...We live, we die; that's it. Maybe the human race is in a constant state of denial because they are afraid to come to the epiphany that once we die, we are dead...so here we have organized religion which quelches our fear of permanent darkness and at the same time creates the perfect guidelines to a life that is squeaky clean...I may come back to this with more evidence later but i'm tired...sorry folks

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Why not try the religion that says: think before you believe....get convinced and then believe...

Why not try to believe that has not a single mistake, contradiction, or error?

why not believe in the real and correct definition of God where there is no Three in one.

Why not not follow the religion that never contradicts logic?

why do you have to say: if christianity is false then all religions are False?

cant there be a real religion of God.

THE BIG QUESTION IS:

Have you read the Quran your self?

Think again and again, you wil lhave the answers to all of your questions. Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth.

Why do thousands of christians around the world convert to Islam, and Yet no real muslims convert to christianity.

Why do a lot of priests, bishops, preachers, etc.. convert to Islam?

READ THE QURAN, here is a site with an english translation of the meanings of the Quran,

and remember please: Politics and what some people do does not make the religion they follow false. A lot of people just contradict their religion.

here is the site:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

The Quran was revealed by God to the prophet mohammad peace be upon to correc the changes and alterations some humans did to the books of God like the bible. Humans have added things to it like the trinity. So God revealed the Quran to guide humans back to his correct way.

Good luck and may God lead us all to the truth.

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Barhoom,

"Truth is a Pathless Land" (Krishnamurti)

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world"(Wittgenstein)...

...denies the view that there is a world which is independent of our language and we experience such a world through a causal relation with it. He repudiates that there is a transcendental view, a God's eye view, from which we can think about a fact, since, even from such a point of view, we have to use our language. If we see a fact from a different point of view, we would see it differently. Thus, for Wittgenstein, there is no picture that is true a priori.

"What is laid down, ordered, factual is never enough to embrace the whole truth: life always spills over the rim of every cup." (Boris Pasternak)

"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit."(Antoine de Saint-Exup)

"A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it."(Rabindranath Tagore)

and thanks for the reference Barhoom...

""YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). ""

... VERY LOGICAL ! :wink:

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truth
This thread should be in the Religion and Spirtuality section. Someone said that we believe what sounds good. That may be so for some, but I know of many instances (my youth included) where one convinces oneself that a belief sounds good after they have adopted/endorsed it. So often people join a religion because that is the religion of their community and family. If they want to "belong" to such supporting social groups they must endorse their fairy tales. To quit one's religion because it no long "sounds right" is to give up all kinds of memberships in community and sometimes family (to alienate yourself from many others, to virtually become ostracized).
But my strongest impression in reading the above posts is that most of the agnostic and atheistic critiques are of the same intellectual level as are the assertions of the believers. When arguing with fundamentalists we automatically sink to their level of reasoning. The only sound response to their cries for belief is to turn away--unless the believers have a more interesting and mysterious approach, like Tillich's intriguing reference to the "God above God."

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fresco,

hello,

I really dont know what to say Very Happy

I didn't really get what you want to say. a lot of proverbs and quotes at first, and then a beautiful verse from the Quran, and then a nice smily face.

maybe I am not very clever to understand you, please get down to my level of understanding and explain to me what you are trying to say.

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truth
Oh, Fresco. Please don't dumb down for us; let us raise ourselves.

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Barhoom,

I am responding to your claim that Islam is "logical" and "the Truth" by quoting authorities on the limits of(a) language in general and(b) logic in particular, and also quoting one of the more chauvinistic passages from the Koran (which you have now classified as "beautiful" !) as an instance of pernicious (=evil) use to which logic is put in religion.

It may be that you are unaware of your conditioning or frightened to respond at an objective level. If so you have my sympathies but not my respect.

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JLN

I hope that wasn't too dumb! ...but sometimes it feels the need to stand up and be counted.

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truth
Fresco, Smile

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just a general note on religious 'dogma' of all flavours;

as a human being, it is one's responsibility to act decently to all other members of the human 'family' and, to that end, it becomes necessary, as an adult, to build a personal code of ethics and behaviour that one can comfortably defend, and with which one can live the kind of life that is worth living within the society of your choice, or by default, in which one finds one's self.

If this personal creed meshes with the religion thrust upon one by familial connection, or geography, that would be, in my opinion either a remarkable coincidence, or evidence that the effort required to derive one's own set of standards has not been fully expended.

Religious belief by default, is tantamount to psychological and emotional suicide!

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truth
BoGoWo, as usual I agree. Traditional religions are frozen doctrines with frozen moral rules. Humans are warm living and squirming beings that need to develop the sensibility needed for situationally shaped ethical crises. To be such a mature being (a Nietzschian ubermensch) one must be free of the moral straitjackets of tradiitonal religions

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and, at the risk of sounding repetitive (who me?), i find the concept of the religion into which you are born, or which is geographically closest, being the one and only "way", considering the vast and varied panoply of religious belief available (and fully worked out in detail, eliminating the need to think), absolutely laughable.

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proof of no god?: what the holy spirit is/jesus not perfect

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