0
   

Physician, Heal Your Damn Self

 
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 01:49 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
actually Larry, Death Row records, while owned by dre and suge knight, was part of the interscope group, distibuted by no less a white mogul than David Geffen among other white partners.


So this removes these black men from the responsiblity of producing this music. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Dre and the people of his time and that music wasn't much better then it is now, but they are still just as much responsible.

How about Def Jam records? Does Chuck D also get to push his responsibility on a white dude?

These people are the faces of rap and its production.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 02:12 pm
Interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading it.

Semi-random thought:

I think that something very powerful that happens with all oppressed groups is the moment when they realize hey, that ain't right. Radicalization, maybe. This happens at many different points for many different people. When I was in college in the early 90's, I saw it happen to a lot of other female college students. Damn, the language in the medical textbooks IS totally biased! Why is menstruation a "waste" while the production of zillions of sperm (of which one or zero are put to use at a time) is an "awesome display" (or some such thing).

Random example, there were better ones; but there was something very valid there that was eye-opening and necessary.

But then there was this encouragement of the victim mentality that made me batty. There was taking the perfectly valid kernel and then taking it to an extreme that rendered even the valid stuff suspect. I was always the crank in my women's studies classes, saying "Yes, you totally have a point here, but this that and this are ridiculous! Come on."

I saw this played out fast-forward in my center in L.A., too. I'd have young deaf people come in who'd had these sheltered existences, parents who didn't know how to sign, etc. I'd get them standing up for their rights and they'd be just gobsmacked -- I can demand an interpreter at the doctor? You're serious? An employer can't fire me just because I'm deaf if I can do the most important parts of the job? Really? No way!

Then they'd get radicalized. They'd see all of this injustice -- actual injustice -- and they just weren't going to take it anymore. This I encouraged.

But they'd almost always go overboard, at least at first. If a deaf person was fired, it was because they were deaf! Those damn hearing people! No matter if the deaf person in question missed 3 days straight without calling their boss and was late 10 days before that. It's Deaf Culture! The hearing boss just didn't get it!

So then I'd have to work with 'em to find that line -- the line between standing up for oneself and not being a doormat, and being unreasonable.

My point here, I think (I'm kinda free-associating, forgive me) is that I don't think there is necessarily a point at which an entire group can come to an understanding en masse. I think that when there is still injustice -- and there is, lots and lots -- there are millions of individual journeys that need to be taken to come to terms with it.

What I would hope is that those of us who can -- teachers, parents, friends, anonymous internet users -- would do what we can to acknowledge real injustice without allowing the victim mentality to take hold, on the individual level. Enough individuals make that journey, and it helps society get where it needs to be.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 02:19 pm
Hey, Soz. Do you know this dude? There used to be someone on this forum that I called The Lion of Judah. He was always saying, " ah, the irony of it all."

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/03/27/eminem_narrowweb__300x396,0.jpg
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 02:19 pm
By the way when I say "work with 'em" I mean mentor-type relationships, especially of people in the same group. Always way more powerful that way. (My students were so used to saying "you don't understand, you're hearing" to authority figures that they actually said it to me more than once -- my eyebrow would near my hairline and everyone would crack up.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 10:02 pm
Bookmarking

Terrific thread, Snood!
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2007 11:51 pm
Lemme take a moment to clarify something. There are a lot of side issues that keep threatening to entwine what I see as the main issue I'm trying to address. Nothing wrong with the entwining except if it chokes the life out of the issue. I know there is conflict going on about the fairness of singling out Imus as related to other shock jocks, or as related to his 30 prior years of arguably worse things said.

I know there is a juicy rant always bursting to break forth about the hypocrisy of Sharpton and Jackson, and how they aren't qualified to be anyone's moral arbiters. And I know there is the temptation (I'm not immune to it) to make it all about who is to blame more, the white folks or the black folks - who's profiting more from the corruption, and who is leading who in the wrong direction.

I only point out the white bigwigs in the rap industry and the majority of suburban whites buying hiphop music to counter the sometimes bitter voices trying to point blame at blacks, saying "Look how they denigrate themselves." I don't point that out to blame "the white man" This is important - if anything, I'm hoping we can see that we all will rise or fall together in this "coarsening of the culture" issue.

IMO, any attempts to point across the racial divide at this or that political opportunist or this or that corporate boss is not only doomed to spiral down into a useless soup of noise, but it is missing the point of this thread.

I wanted to acknowledge in this thread that there is a need to address the power of the words and images in some hiphop music, and in some of the comedy and other entertainment forms. I wanted to say as a black man that I see the need for the same kind of furor that all kinds of people showed toward Imus to be directed at some of the poisonous, negative, seamy, misogynistic and yes oh-so-popular things that keep getting a pass.

I would be so interested to see what kind of change could come about if all that energy (and I refuse to believe it was all just simple market-driven activity)could be focused on those parts of our "entertainment" of which I'm speaking.

It's late at night, and I'm in a good mood because its Friday, and maybe I'm just too damn idealistic for my age, and for this time in our country,
and for the reality of human nature as it actually is. But dammit I'd like to hope it doesn't all just have to be the same righteously indignant "look-how-Elvis-is-corrupting-our-youth" crap. And I'd like to hope that it doesn't all have to devolve into just another pissing contest about who is more to blame. It's 1 in the morning, and I'd like to hope.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 12:35 am
Nods.





I want it to happen through vigor, not by pc'ism. And the vigor because there is more hope. And the hope, not just words as pacifiers.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 04:43 am
snood wrote:
I wanted to acknowledge in this thread that there is a need to address the power of the words and images in some hiphop music, and in some of the comedy and other entertainment forms. I wanted to say as a black man that I see the need for the same kind of furor that all kinds of people showed toward Imus to be directed at some of the poisonous, negative, seamy, misogynistic and yes oh-so-popular things that keep getting a pass.


I know you don't want to hear about Jackson and Sharpton but just allow me to say this - For me, the single best thing about this entire issue has been that Jackson and Sharpton haven't been the voice of blacks in America for the last week or so.

Instead of seeing their mugs on every TV newscast I've seen average, everyday people in the middle of doing what they do getting asked the questions and answering with their opinions. One of the local channels here in Boston interviewed a group of 7 or 8 women in a beauty salon and another group of men from a construction site. The majority of those interviewed were black and they all had different takes on what Imus's comments meant and how he should be dealt with - many brought up the issues of how hip-hop plays into the whole thing and how the overall issue is larger than just Imus.

It has been nice getting the views of blacks in my community instead of mouthpieces spewing rhetoric. Just as you see a need for the same kind of furor that all kinds of people showed towards Imus, I see a need for all kinds of people to voice that furor and a need for those voices to be shown on TV and printed in the media. That seems to have finally happened.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 07:02 am
There will come a time when the kids...not all of them but a great deal of them.... will feel sheepish about the kind of seamy hip hop that is popular in the top 40 everyday world and they will abandon it... just as we abandoned big hair, aqua net, and now only yell "we don't need no water let the mother f*cker burn" once a year at the holiday party.

hip Hop, like metal, and original corrupting rock and roll is supposed to be rebellious and in the face of the grown ups and society in general.
It's cathartic and allows kids to exprsss normal angst and anger. I'm not saying it's good, or that racial and demeaning lyrics are okay, but they are not unusual in one form or another through time.

As I stated earlier, my biggest objection is that it just gets stupider and stupider. No imagery, no wordsmithing, no cleverness.

There's a hell of a jump from Dylan, Lennon and Gaye to death metal and ludacris. The dumbing down of a culture is historically one of the watershed moments in the beginning of it's demise.

Having said that, I make a living playing the eternal naughty rocker for my aging peers so I guess I'm a hypocritical prick. Laughing
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 07:20 am
No you're not dude. You make big sense. Much love.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:17 am
And now a musical interlude

    Looking back on when I Was a little nappy headed boy Then my only worry Was for Christmas what would be my toy Even though we sometimes Would not get a thing We were happy with the Joy the day would bring Sneaking out the back door To hang out with those hoodlum friends of mine Greeted at the back door With "Boy thought I told you not to go outside", Tryin your best to bring the Water to your eyes Thinkin' it might stop her From whoopin' your behind I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go 'Cause I love them so Brother says he's tellin 'bout you playin' doctor with that girl Just don't tell I'll give you Anything you want in this whole wide world Mama gives you money for Sunday school You trade yours for candy after church is through Smokin' cigarettes and writing something nasty on the wall (you nasty boy) Teacher sends you to the principal's office down the wall You grow up and learn that kinda thing ain't right But while you were doin it-it sure felt outta sight I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go


That song's been running through my head lately (probably more due to the first and second lines than anything else).

I've been wondering why no one's grabbed Howard Stern yet for his opinion.
I've been wondering why these young ladies don't just tell Imus, etc. to go scratch, that those people's opinions don't mean anything to them?
I've been troubled by the rush to victimhood, and the quashing of free (yet of course objectionable) speech.
I've been troubled by advertisers essentially dictating what ends up on the airwaves.
I've been troubled by how quickly this all escalated, 2 weeks suspension to one firing, to a second.
I've been troubled by the free (albeit negative) publicity that's been tossed around for people (Imus, Sharpton, etc.) who I generally don't think about at all. How'd they end up the lead story, ahead of the Iraqi parliament building being bombed, or the NJ Governor getting into an accident and a million other things?
I've been troubled by the belief that the word "ho" is somehow an acceptable alternative to, I dunno, "Miss"? "Bitch"? "You female who I won't bother to know the name of so I'll insult you sexually"?

I've been thinking about synonyms. What does nappy-headed mean, anyway? It means curly-haired, which, so far as I'm aware, is no insult. But ho just means prostitute. It has no neutral synonym. I think that's the big insult here.

I've been watching this story coopted by lots of different folks with all sorts of different agendas, both here and in the news and sports and elsewhere. It gets bigger and bigger and takes on a life of its own, like an errant balloon at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Huge and menacing-looking, but ultimately with little substance and easy destroyed with almost no effort.

PS That horrible gangsta rapper I quoted above was Stevie Wonder. Circa '76. Smile
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:22 am
jespah wrote:

I've been wondering why no one's grabbed Howard Stern yet for his opinion.


They have -- he said that he thought Imus was handling it badly and instead of going on Sharpton's show and stuff he should've just said, "**** you, it was a joke!" and left it at that.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:30 am
Ah, thanks, musta missed that.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:40 am
jespah wrote:
And now a musical interlude

    Looking back on when I Was a little nappy headed boy Then my only worry Was for Christmas what would be my toy Even though we sometimes Would not get a thing We were happy with the Joy the day would bring Sneaking out the back door To hang out with those hoodlum friends of mine Greeted at the back door With "Boy thought I told you not to go outside", Tryin your best to bring the Water to your eyes Thinkin' it might stop her From whoopin' your behind I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go 'Cause I love them so Brother says he's tellin 'bout you playin' doctor with that girl Just don't tell I'll give you Anything you want in this whole wide world Mama gives you money for Sunday school You trade yours for candy after church is through Smokin' cigarettes and writing something nasty on the wall (you nasty boy) Teacher sends you to the principal's office down the wall You grow up and learn that kinda thing ain't right But while you were doin it-it sure felt outta sight I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go I wish those days could come back once more Why did those days ev-er have to go


That song's been running through my head lately (probably more due to the first and second lines than anything else).

I've been wondering why no one's grabbed Howard Stern yet for his opinion.
I've been wondering why these young ladies don't just tell Imus, etc. to go scratch, that those people's opinions don't mean anything to them?
I've been troubled by the rush to victimhood, and the quashing of free (yet of course objectionable) speech.
I've been troubled by advertisers essentially dictating what ends up on the airwaves.
I've been troubled by how quickly this all escalated, 2 weeks suspension to one firing, to a second.
I've been troubled by the free (albeit negative) publicity that's been tossed around for people (Imus, Sharpton, etc.) who I generally don't think about at all. How'd they end up the lead story, ahead of the Iraqi parliament building being bombed, or the NJ Governor getting into an accident and a million other things?
I've been troubled by the belief that the word "ho" is somehow an acceptable alternative to, I dunno, "Miss"? "Bitch"? "You female who I won't bother to know the name of so I'll insult you sexually"?

I've been thinking about synonyms. What does nappy-headed mean, anyway? It means curly-haired, which, so far as I'm aware, is no insult. But ho just means prostitute. It has no neutral synonym. I think that's the big insult here.

I've been watching this story coopted by lots of different folks with all sorts of different agendas, both here and in the news and sports and elsewhere. It gets bigger and bigger and takes on a life of its own, like an errant balloon at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Huge and menacing-looking, but ultimately with little substance and easy destroyed with almost no effort.

PS That horrible gangsta rapper I quoted above was Stevie Wonder. Circa '76. Smile


I've been troubled by this horrible and insistent rectal itch. I'm thinking about more fibre in my diet.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:49 am
snood wrote:
Lemme take a moment to clarify something. There are a lot of side issues that keep threatening to entwine what I see as the main issue I'm trying to address. Nothing wrong with the entwining except if it chokes the life out of the issue. I know there is conflict going on about the fairness of singling out Imus as related to other shock jocks, or as related to his 30 prior years of arguably worse things said.

I know there is a juicy rant always bursting to break forth about the hypocrisy of Sharpton and Jackson, and how they aren't qualified to be anyone's moral arbiters. And I know there is the temptation (I'm not immune to it) to make it all about who is to blame more, the white folks or the black folks - who's profiting more from the corruption, and who is leading who in the wrong direction.

I only point out the white bigwigs in the rap industry and the majority of suburban whites buying hiphop music to counter the sometimes bitter voices trying to point blame at blacks, saying "Look how they denigrate themselves." I don't point that out to blame "the white man" This is important - if anything, I'm hoping we can see that we all will rise or fall together in this "coarsening of the culture" issue.

IMO, any attempts to point across the racial divide at this or that political opportunist or this or that corporate boss is not only doomed to spiral down into a useless soup of noise, but it is missing the point of this thread.

I wanted to acknowledge in this thread that there is a need to address the power of the words and images in some hiphop music, and in some of the comedy and other entertainment forms. I wanted to say as a black man that I see the need for the same kind of furor that all kinds of people showed toward Imus to be directed at some of the poisonous, negative, seamy, misogynistic and yes oh-so-popular things that keep getting a pass.

I would be so interested to see what kind of change could come about if all that energy (and I refuse to believe it was all just simple market-driven activity)could be focused on those parts of our "entertainment" of which I'm speaking.

It's late at night, and I'm in a good mood because its Friday, and maybe I'm just too damn idealistic for my age, and for this time in our country,
and for the reality of human nature as it actually is. But dammit I'd like to hope it doesn't all just have to be the same righteously indignant "look-how-Elvis-is-corrupting-our-youth" crap. And I'd like to hope that it doesn't all have to devolve into just another pissing contest about who is more to blame. It's 1 in the morning, and I'd like to hope.


Excellent post.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:51 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
There will come a time when the kids...not all of them but a great deal of them.... will feel sheepish about the kind of seamy hip hop that is popular in the top 40 everyday world and they will abandon it... just as we abandoned big hair, aqua net, and now only yell "we don't need no water let the mother f*cker burn" once a year at the holiday party.

hip Hop, like metal, and original corrupting rock and roll is supposed to be rebellious and in the face of the grown ups and society in general.
It's cathartic and allows kids to exprsss normal angst and anger. I'm not saying it's good, or that racial and demeaning lyrics are okay, but they are not unusual in one form or another through time.

As I stated earlier, my biggest objection is that it just gets stupider and stupider. No imagery, no wordsmithing, no cleverness.

There's a hell of a jump from Dylan, Lennon and Gaye to death metal and ludacris. The dumbing down of a culture is historically one of the watershed moments in the beginning of it's demise.

Having said that, I make a living playing the eternal naughty rocker for my aging peers so I guess I'm a hypocritical prick. Laughing


Bear is one of my favorite people.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 09:12 am
right back atcha my good friend and aging peer... :wink:
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 03:52 am
Great point snood...about blacks policing themselves better.

How do you feel about white on white racism and sexism?

For example:
How do you feel when Setanta continually refers to McGentrix as McWhitey? Nobody seems to be policing that.

Or in the movie Borat when he asks advice for which is the best gun for killing Jews.

Is what came out of Imus's mouth any worse or better then Conan O'Brien making a joke about Kirsty Ally's weight, being fat and shooting her with a harpoon rifle?

Or the billions of slut jokes about Paris Hilton when her sex tape leaked.

What say you?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 07:06 am
well Paris Hilton IS a slut... Kistie Alley is or was a huge fat load...I don't think Set is making fun of McGentrix for being white.... perhaps for being EXTRA white....and Borat, IMO (which may be minority) is not that funny.

Point is this humor you mention, although it may be inappropriate, sophmoric and insulting, and believe me I know inappropriate, sophmoric and insulting, at least stems from and has a basis in fact.

The Rutgers girls are not nappy headed, and given their athletic and scholastic achievements one can reasonably assume they are also not ho's, or whores as they might say at an institute of higher learning.

There's a major difference there.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 09:30 am
But BPB, that's kinda like what Snoop Dogg said when asked to comment on this Imus thing. He said something to the effect of "We don't do it to college women, but only to the hood rats who deserve it". Something is racist and sexist or it basically ain't.

And as to CK's question for me about "McWhitey"...
Yes, I think those things are not right to say, and for the same reasons. See, I don't think the particular mean-spiritedness that comes across in some words is hard to recognize. I've been guilty of it when talking about certain high profile black republicans.

Here's the thing though, CK - if all that comes from this time when the 'Imus thing' caused a national self-check is that we make sure we point the finger at everyone who has ever been guilty of it and share the hypocrisy equally, I think we may miss an important moment. Maybe this recent highlighting of the power of cruel words doesn't have to just evaporate into "well, everyone does it", but can lead to at least beginning to move away from their acceptability.
0 Replies
 
 

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