real life wrote:neologist wrote:Well, as I pointed out in page 4 of this thread, when real life and I disagree, it is not on the validity of the bible, but rather on its interpretation. I have been able to find at least one non-Watchtower source who verifies my assertion that Jesus was not speaking about raising himself independent of the power of his father. (I haven't taken the time to look for others.) Interestingly, the source is from a trinitarian believer, so I don't know how much credit this find will receive from RL.
There are many good arguments for Jesus' being a separate individual, not the least of which is Satan's challenge that he could break the integrity of any of God's creation. Jesus represents the quintessential example of a creature's integrity and love for his God. Were he God, this distinction would not exist.
The source you cite offers little problem for me, Neo. (I am considered too trinitarian for some, not nearly enough for others. So I guess it depends on who you talk to. I have no problem with either using or foregoing the label, myself.)
You stated , I think if I rightly recall, that Robertson identifies God as the 'active agent' in raising Jesus from the dead.
The NT repeatedly says that God raised Jesus from the dead.
Since Jesus is God, I have no problem with that.
Jesus' clear statement was that He would 'raise up' the temple that the Jews would destroy.
The writer, John, pointedly states that Jesus was referring to His body when He said this.
I don't know how much clearer you want it.
But you are correct that we have no disagreement on the validity of the Bible, only it's interpretation.
If you ever interpret it correctly, that disagreement will also be over. :wink:
Hope you are doing well, my friend. Have a cupa for me.
Jesus and God both raise the temple because it took the obedience of Jesus to God to bring about salvation. Thus God is also our savior because it was God who devised the plan of redemption which involved his son Jesus Christ.
But after the resurrection of Jesus Christ he is then referred to as Christ Jesus where the name Christ precedes the name Jesus.
This name change is due to God the father raising Jesus from the grave.
It is unclear (to me) as to whether the battle Christ Jesus triumphed over and made a shew of and led captivity captive was while he was dead in the grave or whether if the battle was sometime directly after sunset the night before Easter morning.
Ultimately it says that Jesus was DEAD. For to raise someone from the dead requires that they be dead. But it is known in the Epistle logic that the spirit seed of God cannot be corrupted or killed. But it was removed from Adam and Even when they sinned for the Bible says ON THAT DAY thou shalt SURELY die if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. But they obviously did not physically die so they died a spiritual death. But this spirit did not die it simply moved into another catalyst until it moved into the from of seed and sonship. (Cain or Christ) Because the spirit (other than in the garden where the spirit was upon Adam and Eve upon a "condition") is "seed" and cannot be removed just as physical seed codes for DNA character of the father and mother.
So one first before they consider who raised Jesus would have to decide that dead does not mean dead. Define dead...
For how can a dead man get up on his own?
This is the conundrum. For there would have to be a mystery about the death of Jesus that he only appeared dead in the flesh but in the spirit he lived. There is this kind of logic but it all abruptly halts when one realizes the spirit is created by God and not God himself. It is an "image" of God. (some people simply cannot grasp this idea) This is where the two diverge. It is the creative nature of creation. Just as we stand in the image of God so did Christ. Just as our spirits are currently seated in heavenly places and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus we are also mortal and have a heel touching upon this earth.
So was it Jesus' spirit that raised his body from the dead? Or was it more like this spirit ascending into heaven? That the spirit was so righteous that hell could not hold Jesus' life down within it's gates and walls. Thus it was the nature of the image of God in Christ Jesus that raised him from the grave. We have the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, How? Through the image of God not our own (physical/flesh) image.
Was this spirit in Jesus in heaven all along and it simply was operating from a heavenly place impacting events on earth.
We know the spirit came at the time of baptism so it did NOT predate his birth but did it die when he died? God raised Jesus with a new body but was his spirit new?
His soul life went back into the earth (he gave up the ghost) his physical body was gone from the tomb. So it must have been his physical body and molecules reanimated with a quickened spiritual life force.
It would appear that his spirit left his body and journeyed into a place where it faced corruption and prevailed over evil. This is where he regained the heavenly status as the bright and morning star and took control of one third of the stars in heaven. These stars are us now. And his new body was the phenomenon of the event where the ascension was the miracle of the envent.
Yet ultimately we are still as stars part of the creation of God.
It is time to get clear on this truth..
The line is drawn between the creation and the creator...
Jesus was most certainly as "the son" of God part of the creation (Not even once in the Bible is Jesus referred to as "God the son") even as he also as the sprit of God is still part of the creation.
God created man/woman in his own image. This image is spirit not the mortal part.
God is THE Holy Spirit (big H big S) and God creates holy spirit (small h small s) in us through Christ Jesus.
body soul and spirit
Creator/creation
Giver/gift
