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Who resurrected Jesus?

 
 
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 02:49 pm
Many christians are looking forward to celebrating Jesus' resurrection in the Easter Holiday.

Who resurrected Jesus?

If you say Jesus resurrected himself, then was he really dead?

If he was not really dead than what was the point of his sacrifice?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 7,632 • Replies: 188
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 02:55 pm
Even if he was really dead, what was the point of his sacrifice? You're not going to try to tell me that the Old Testament tirant discovered heavenly Prozac are you?
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 02:57 pm
Fatherhood can have a mellowing influence.







And by mellowing, I mean having-the-life-sucked-out-of-you. Or so it seems in my observations.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 04:52 pm
mesquite wrote:
Even if he was really dead, what was the point of his sacrifice? You're not going to try to tell me that the Old Testament tirant discovered heavenly Prozac are you?
?
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 05:40 pm
Carry on Neo. The fact that otherwise intelligent adults still today speak of human sacrifice as if it were a completely normal and acceptable thing just gets my bristles up.
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BDV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 05:49 pm
Nobody, or the same person who resurrected Mithras after he got sacrificed. Why raise him from the dead anyway? still seams a bit pointless to this day, sure most christians still believe he got nailed through the hands, bet they are all running around bleeding at the moment, yet another miracle..... well if he died for my sins then i can do and say whatever i want Very Happy look at hitler, he must be living it up in heaven........ or did jesus not die for his ?
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 06:54 pm
Dr Marvin Greenbaum gave him an injection of adrenaline and some antibiotics and this perked him right up.
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BDV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 07:01 pm
Hail Dr Marvin Greenbaum the new messiah

NickFun wrote:
Dr Marvin Greenbaum gave him an injection of adrenaline and some antibiotics and this perked him right up.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 07:50 pm
mesquite wrote:
Carry on Neo. The fact that otherwise intelligent adults still today speak of human sacrifice as if it were a completely normal and acceptable thing just gets my bristles up.
Jesus' death is in a light years' different category.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 08:04 pm
I like the resurrection story in the non-canonical Gospel of Peter.

Quote:
9 Early in the morning, as the Sabbath dawned, there came a large crowd from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas to see the sealed tomb. 2 But during the night before the Lord's day dawned, as the soldiers were keeping guard two by two in every watch, there came a great sound in the sky, 3 and they saw the heavens opened and two men descend shining with a great light, and they drew near to the tomb. 4 The stone which had been set on the door rolled away by itself and moved to one side, and the tomb was opened and both of the young men went in.

10 Now when these soldiers saw that, they woke up the centurion and the elders (for they also were there keeping watch). 2 While they were yet telling them the things which they had seen, they saw three men come out of the tomb, two of them sustaining the other one, and a cross following after them. 3 The heads of the two they saw had heads that reached up to heaven, but the head of him that was led by them wen beyond heaven. 4 And they heard a voice out of the heavens saying, "Have you preached unto them that sleep?" 5 The answer that was heard from the cross was, "Yes!"

11 Those men took counsel with each other and thought to go and report these things to Pilate. 2 And while they were thinking the heavens were opened again and a man descended and entered the tomb. 3 When those who were with the centurion saw that, they hurried to go by night to Pilate and left the tomb that they were watching. They told all what they had seen and were in great despair saying, "He was certainly the son of God!" 4 Pilate answered them, saying, I do not have the blood of the son of God on my hands. This was all your doing." 5 Then all they came and begeed and pleaded with him to order the centurion and the soldiers to tell nothing of what they had seen. 6 "For," they said, "it is better for us to be guilty of the greatest sin before God, than to fall into the hands of the Jews and to be stoned." 7 Pilate therefore ordered the centurion and the soldiers that they should say nothing.

12 Early on the Lord's day, Mary of Magdala, a disciple of the Lord, was afraid of the Jews, for they were inflamed with rage, so she had not performed at the tomb of the Lord the things that are cusomary for women to do for their loved ones that have died. 2 She took with her some women friends and came unto the tomb where he had been laid. 3 And they feared lest the Jews would see them, and said, "Even if we were not able to weep and lament him on the day that he was crucified, let us do so now at his tomb. 4 But who will roll the stone away for us that is set upon the door of the tomb, so that we may enter in and sit beside him and do what needs to be done?" 5 The stone was indeed great. "We fear that someone might see us. And if we cannot roll the stone away, let us cast down at the door these things which we bring as a memorial of him, and we will weep and beat our breasts until we arrive home."

13 And they went and found the tomb open. They drew near to it and looked in and saw a young man sitting in the middle of the tomb; He had a fair countenance and was clad in very bright raiment. He said unto them, 2 Why are you here? Who do you seek? You're not looking for the one that was crucified? He is risen and is gone. If you don't believe it, look in and see the place where he was laid down, for he is not there. For he has risen and is gone to the place that he had come from. 3 Then the women fled in fear.

14 Now it was the last day of Unleavened Bread, and many were returning to their homes since the feast was ending. 2 But we, the twelve disciples of the Lord, continued weeping and mourning, and each one srill grieving for what had happened, left for his own home. 3 But I, Simon Peter, and Andrew my brother, took our fishing nets and went to the sea. With us was Levi, the son of Alphaeus, whom the Lord... Gospel of Peter


Discussion on the Gospel of Peter



Quote:
Information on Gospel of Peter

F. F. Bruce writes (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 93):

The docetic note in this narrative appears in the statement that Jesus, while being crucified, 'remained silent, as though he felt no pain', and in the account of his death. It carefully avoids saying that he died, preferring to say that he 'was taken up', as though he - or at least his soul or spiritual self - was 'assumed' direct from the cross to the presence of God. (We shall see an echo of this idea in the Qur'an.) Then the cry of dereliction is reproduced in a form which suggests that, at that moment, his divine power left the bodily shell in which it had taken up temporary residence.

F. F. Bruce continues (op. cit.):

Apart from its docetic tendency, the most striking feature of the narrative is its complete exoneration of Pilate from alll responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus. Pilate is here well on the way to the goal of canonisation which he was to attain in the Coptic Church. He withdraws from the trial after washing his hands, and Herod Antipas takes over from him, assuming the responsibility which, in Luke's passion narrative, he declined to accept. Roman soldiers play no part until they are sent by Pilate, at the request of the Jewish authorities, to provide the guard at the tomb of Jesus. The villians of the piece throughout are 'the Jews' - more particularly, the chief priests and the scribes. It is they who condemn Jesus to death and abuse him; it is they who crucify him and share out his clothes among themselves.

In The Death of the Messiah, Raymond Brown maintains that the Gospel of Peter is dependent on the canonical gospels by oral remembrance of the gospels spoken in churches. The opinion that the Gospel of Peter is dependent upon the canonical gospels directly is also a common one.

Ron Cameron argues that the Gospel of Peter is independent of the canonical four (The Other Gospels, pp. 77-8):

Identification of the sources of the Gospel of Peter is a matter of considerable debate. However, the language used to portray the passion provides a clue to the use of sources, the character of the tradition, and the date of composition. Analysis reveals that the passion narrative of the Gospel of Peter has been composed on the basis of references to the Jewish scriptures. The Gospel of Peter thus stands squarely in the tradition of exegetical interpretation of the Bible. Its sources of the passion narrative is oral tradition, understood in the light of scripture, interpreted within the wisdom movement. This accords with what we know of the confessions of the earliest believers in Jesus: in the beginning, belief in the suffering, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus was simply the conviction that all this took place "according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3-5). In utilizing scriptural references to compose the work, the Gospel of Peter shows no knowledge of the special material distinctive to each of the four gospels now in the New Testament. The developed apologetic technique typical of the Gospel of Matthew and of Justin (a church writer who lived in the middle of the second century), which seeks to demonstrate a correspondence between so-called prophetic "predictions" in the scriptures and their "fulfillments" in the fate of Jesus, is lacking. The use of quotation formulas to introduce scriptural citations is also absent.

All of this suggests that the Gospel of Peter is an independent witness of gospel traditions. Its earliest possible date of composition would be in the middle of the first century, when passion narratives first began to be compiled. The latest possible date would be in the second half of the second century, shortly before this gospel was used by the Christians at Rhossus and the copy discovered at Oxyrhynchus was made. It is well known that the passion narrative which Mark used originally circulated independently of his gopel; the Gospel of John demonstrates that different versions of this early passinon narrative ewre in circulation. It is possible that the Gospel of Peter used a source similar to that preserved independently in Mark and John. The basic stories underlying the accounts of the epiphany and the empty tomb are form critically discrete and probably very old. In fact, these stories are closely related to certain legendary accounts and apologetic fragments that intrude into the gospel of the New Testament (Matt. 27:51-54, 62-66; 28:2-4; Mark 9:2-8 and parallels). The Gospel of Peter's exoneration of Pilate, the Roman procurator who had Jesus killed, and the accompanying anti-Jewish polemica are secondary additions to these primitive narratives, imported from a situation in which the Jesus movement was beginning to define itself in opposition to other Jewish communities.

Form criticism and redaction criticism indicate that the Gospel of Peter was dependent upon a number of sources, but it is quite possible that the document as we have it antedates the four gospels of the New Testament and may have served as a source for their respective authors. The Gospel of Peter was probably composed in the second half of the first century, most likely in western Syria. As such, it is the oldest extant writing produced and circulated under the authority of the apostle Peter. The creation of a passion and resurrection narrative was the product of a communitiy of believers who understood the ultimate activity of God to have taken place in their own time, when the powers of unrighteousness and death were conquered by God's definitive act of raising the dead. Accordingly, the fate of Jesus is interpreted, in the hindsight of scripture, as God's vindication of the suffering righteous one.

J.D. Crossan is most famous for his reconstruction of a Cross Gospel preserved in the Gospel of Peter that served as the basis for the passion narrative in all four canonical gospels. Crossan has set forward this thesis briefly in Four Other Gospels as well as in his book The Cross that Spoke.

Koester has criticized this hypothesis for several reasons: the Gospel of Peter has been preserved mostly in one late manuscript, making certainty about the text difficult; Crossan seems to underestimate the role of oral tradition and assigns all the gospel materials to earlier noncanonical sources; finally, appearance stories cannot have been present in the passion narrative because they are independent of each other in the canonical gospels (Ancient Christian Gospels, pp. 219-20). Koester reaches slightly different conclusions about the passion narrative behind Peter (op. cit., p.240): "The Gospel of Peter, as a whole, is not dependent upon any of the canonical gospels. It is a composition which is analogous to the Gospels of Mark and John. All three writings, independently of each other, use an older passion narrative which is based upon an exegetical traidition that was still alive when these gospels were composed, and to which the Gospel of Matthew also had access. All five gospels under consideration, Mark, John, and Peter, as well as Matthew and Luke, concluded their gospels with narratives of the appearnces of Jesus on the basis of different epiphany stories that were told in different contexts. However, fragments of the epiphany story of Jesus being raised from the tomb, which the Gospel of Peter has preserved in its entirety, were employed in different literary contexts in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew." Source
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 11:33 pm
neologist wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Carry on Neo. The fact that otherwise intelligent adults still today speak of human sacrifice as if it were a completely normal and acceptable thing just gets my bristles up.
Jesus' death is in a light years' different category.


Yeah, there is human sacrifice, and then there is human sacrifice. . .

What?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2007 11:37 pm
Re: Who resurrected Jesus?
neologist wrote:
Many christians are looking forward to celebrating Jesus' resurrection in the Easter Holiday.

Who resurrected Jesus?

If you say Jesus resurrected himself, then was he really dead?

If he was not really dead than what was the point of his sacrifice?


According to the believers, which includes you, your god can do anything he wants. That's part and parcel of the meaning of his name, according to you, "he who causes to become." It's a roundabout way of saying that your god is omnipotent without having to say that he's omnipotent, a designation which of course you won't find in the Bible.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:42 am
InfraBlue wrote:
neologist wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Carry on Neo. The fact that otherwise intelligent adults still today speak of human sacrifice as if it were a completely normal and acceptable thing just gets my bristles up.
Jesus' death is in a light years' different category.


Yeah, there is human sacrifice, and then there is human sacrifice. . .

What?
Jesus came to earth willingly to offer the only sacrifice which could account for the sin of Adam.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 09:46 am
Re: Who resurrected Jesus?
InfraBlue wrote:
neologist wrote:
Many christians are looking forward to celebrating Jesus' resurrection in the Easter Holiday.

Who resurrected Jesus?

If you say Jesus resurrected himself, then was he really dead?

If he was not really dead than what was the point of his sacrifice?


According to the believers, which includes you, your god can do anything he wants. That's part and parcel of the meaning of his name, according to you, "he who causes to become." It's a roundabout way of saying that your god is omnipotent without having to say that he's omnipotent, a designation which of course you won't find in the Bible.
I believe it is the word 'omniscient', which causes the most confusion. If by 'omniscient', you imply necessity, then the designation would fail.

That being said, I wonder what part of my initial post you are responding to.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 10:00 am
The part that confuses me is how people can seriously consider resurrection as a true option. Or sins of Adam (What about Eve?)
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 01:01 pm
probably the same reason there is flat world societies

edgarblythe wrote:
The part that confuses me is how people can seriously consider resurrection as a true option. Or sins of Adam (What about Eve?)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 01:02 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
The part that confuses me is how people can seriously consider resurrection as a true option. Or sins of Adam (What about Eve?)
Whenever the bible talks about Adm's sin, Eve is included in much the same way as when we speak of Enron's failure, we include all culpable players.

As far as resurrection is concerned, it should be no problem for an all powerful God. One would first need sufficient demonstration of God's existence for the concept of resurrection to make sense.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 01:34 pm
neologist wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
The part that confuses me is how people can seriously consider resurrection as a true option. Or sins of Adam (What about Eve?)
Whenever the bible talks about Adm's sin, Eve is included in much the same way as when we speak of Enron's failure, we include all culpable players.

As far as resurrection is concerned, it should be no problem for an all powerful God. One would first need sufficient demonstration of God's existence for the concept of resurrection to make sense.


It would take more than that. After becoming convinced there is a god, one would still be confronted with understanding the nature of the god, ie, image like a human, disinterested, loving, spiteful, favoring Christian concepts or Muslim (substitute your favorite), and so on. In short, even if one could accept, even for the sake of discussion, a god, there are insurmountable difficulties with identifying her/him/it.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 02:01 pm
Right. But first things first.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Apr, 2007 02:01 pm
God, the Father, raised Jesus from the dead.

Man needs to stop trying to mold God into what they want Him to be or what they think He is. We need to conform ourselves to God; not conform God to ourselves.
0 Replies
 
 

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