Who resurrected Jesus?

real life wrote:

neologist wrote:

The first lie appeared in Genesis ch. 3, vs. 4: "YOU positively will not die."

You earlier suggested that one of Jesus' statements referred to 'spiritual death'.

Since Adam and Eve didn't drop dead the day they disobeyed God, could this be referring to the same?

Just asking.

neologist wrote:

If there had been any consciousness or punishment or reward after death, surely God would have informed Adam and Eve straight on. Their hope was to have lived forever on earth. Had they not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death.

The Hebrew words we read as 'Garden of Eden' could just have easily been translated as 'Paradise of Pleasure'. An interesting prospect for mankind, eh?

So your whole objection is based on what YOU think God shoulda done?

Isn't doctrine based on what the Bible SAYS and not what we THINK IT OUGHTA say?

My objection is based on what the bible actually says. They were told to live in the paradise and extend it over the entire earth, to bear children and have dominion over the animals. No mention of heaven or hell. After they sinned, they were told only that they would return to dust. That their physical death was preceded by a spiritual death should come as no surprise.

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

real life wrote:

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

Paul is now with Christ and YOU are mistaken about what Paul said.

There is so much underlying our conversation here. True, a few chosen Christians will reign as kings and priests in heaven. Also true, we were created to live on earth and, for the majority of mankind, this is our hope. If that were not true, then over whom are the heavenly group to be kings and priests?

You realize, do you not, that these concepts you adhere to: trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc. are all common to pagan religions? Why are you not at least suspicious?

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

Paul is now with Christ and YOU are mistaken about what Paul said.

There is so much underlying our conversation here. True, a few chosen Christians will reign as kings and priests in heaven. Also true, we were created to live on earth and, for the majority of mankind, this is our hope. If that were not true, then over whom are the heavenly group to be kings and priests?

You realize, do you not, that these concepts you adhere to: trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc. are all common to pagan religions? Why are you not at least suspicious?

If we agree that Paul is with Christ now, is every believer who has died since that time also with Christ? No.

Are they conscious of where they are? No. They are awaiting the fulfillment of John 5: 28, 29 as are all who died before Jesus' sacrifice. This explains Jesus' words at Matthew 11:11: "Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

As far as pagan philosophies, do you think that an effective counterfeit should closely resemble the original? Any thing that is contrary to the truth would work.

real life wrote:

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

Paul is now with Christ and YOU are mistaken about what Paul said.

There is so much underlying our conversation here. True, a few chosen Christians will reign as kings and priests in heaven. Also true, we were created to live on earth and, for the majority of mankind, this is our hope. If that were not true, then over whom are the heavenly group to be kings and priests?

You realize, do you not, that these concepts you adhere to: trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc. are all common to pagan religions? Why are you not at least suspicious?

If we agree that Paul is with Christ now, is every believer who has died since that time also with Christ? No.

Are they conscious of where they are? No. They are awaiting the fulfillment of John 5: 28, 29 as are all who died before Jesus' sacrifice. This explains Jesus' words at Matthew 11:11: "Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

As far as pagan philosophies, do you think that an effective counterfeit should closely resemble the original? Any thing that is contrary to the truth would work.

Green stuff mine.

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

Paul is now with Christ and YOU are mistaken about what Paul said.

There is so much underlying our conversation here. True, a few chosen Christians will reign as kings and priests in heaven. Also true, we were created to live on earth and, for the majority of mankind, this is our hope. If that were not true, then over whom are the heavenly group to be kings and priests?

You realize, do you not, that these concepts you adhere to: trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc. are all common to pagan religions? Why are you not at least suspicious?

If we agree that Paul is with Christ now, is every believer who has died since that time also with Christ? No.

Are they conscious of where they are? No. They are awaiting the fulfillment of John 5: 28, 29 as are all who died before Jesus' sacrifice. This explains Jesus' words at Matthew 11:11: "Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

As far as pagan philosophies, do you think that an effective counterfeit should closely resemble the original? Any thing that is contrary to the truth would work.

Green stuff mine.

So you believe that Paul is concious after his death (and with Christ), but you apparently don't believe that Christ was conscious after His death (during the three days and nights that His body lay in the grave).

Do I understand your position correctly? Please let me know if I misunderstand you. I'm not trying to misrepresent, but your view on this is not at all clear to me.

real life wrote:

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:

. . . Do you think Paul is with Christ now, or that he was mistaken in what he anticipated and wrote about?

Paul is now with Christ and YOU are mistaken about what Paul said.

There is so much underlying our conversation here. True, a few chosen Christians will reign as kings and priests in heaven. Also true, we were created to live on earth and, for the majority of mankind, this is our hope. If that were not true, then over whom are the heavenly group to be kings and priests?

You realize, do you not, that these concepts you adhere to: trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc. are all common to pagan religions? Why are you not at least suspicious?

If we agree that Paul is with Christ now, is every believer who has died since that time also with Christ? No.

Are they conscious of where they are? No. They are awaiting the fulfillment of John 5: 28, 29 as are all who died before Jesus' sacrifice. This explains Jesus' words at Matthew 11:11: "Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

As far as pagan philosophies, do you think that an effective counterfeit should closely resemble the original? Any thing that is contrary to the truth would work.

Green stuff mine.

So you believe that Paul is concious after his death (and with Christ), but you apparently don't believe that Christ was conscious after His death (during the three days and nights that His body lay in the grave).

Do I understand your position correctly? Please let me know if I misunderstand you. I'm not trying to misrepresent, but your view on this is not at all clear to me.

All those like Paul who died in Christ remained unconscious until the first resurrection.

More to this, of course. But the point is when you are dead you are dead. The only hope you might have is in the resurrection.