"War" or "Occupation" - Which Is Correct?

In response to the original question posed by this thread: I'm going with illegal invasion (not war) followed by occupation of Iraq (by the invaders). Followed by ongoing mayhem.

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Advocate wrote:

Everyone seems to agree that our military is the best. Here is a thought: if the military is so wonderful, why are we doing so badly in Iraq after over four years?

Because we're learning the limits of our power.

Brandon,

I can prove that supporting Israel is in our military and economic interests. Can you prove that the reasons we support them is out of sympathy?

It would seem that the burden of proof falls upon you, man.

Cycloptichorn

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snood wrote:

Brandon:

Quote:
I can assert that the Earth has been guarded for the last century by kindly aliens, who have ships at the edge of our solar system guarding us from unfriendly aliens, but with no evidence whatsoever, the assertion isn't worth anything. You're claiming to have read other people's minds unless you can come up with some sort of factual support for your assertion of their motives.

But didn't you just say...

Quote:
I feel, and many people who think like I do feel, that supporting decent, democratic, civilized people from attack by barbaric fascists intent on destroying them is worthwhile.

Pot/kettle

I don't have to read minds to know that some people feel this way, particularly since they say that they do. I am not asserting that specific individuals feel a certain way, only that there is some group of people who feel as I do. Indeed, many posters on this very board express this opinion, so one can safely assume that there is a group that feels as I do. Asserting that some specific individual has certain motives, particularly when he asserts quite different motives does require either evidence or mind reading ability.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Everyone seems to agree that our military is the best. Here is a thought: if the military is so wonderful, why are we doing so badly in Iraq after over four years?

Because we're learning the limits of our power.

Brandon,

I can prove that supporting Israel is in our military and economic interests. Can you prove that the reasons we support them is out of sympathy?

It would seem that the burden of proof falls upon you, man.

Cycloptichorn

Proving that there are gains from doing something does not constitute proof that a specific set of individuals did it for that reason. Since you are asserting that specific people are motivated by specific ideas contrary to their own description of their motives, it's reasonable to ask you to provide support for that theory. I am not asking for iron clad proof, only some evidence.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Everyone seems to agree that our military is the best. Here is a thought: if the military is so wonderful, why are we doing so badly in Iraq after over four years?

Because we're learning the limits of our power.

Brandon,

I can prove that supporting Israel is in our military and economic interests. Can you prove that the reasons we support them is out of sympathy?

It would seem that the burden of proof falls upon you, man.

Cycloptichorn

Proving that there are gains from doing something does not constitute proof that a specific set of individuals did it for that reason. Since you are asserting that specific people are motivated by specific ideas contrary to their own description of their motives, it's reasonable to ask you to provide support for that theory. I am not asking for iron clad proof, only some evidence.

The evidence lies in the continuing and pervasive nature of our gov'ts aid to Israel. Certainly if it was based upon sympathy, and not the economic and military interests of our nation, then at some point within the last 60 years leaders would have cut off the aid; it is mind-reading on your part to claim that you know the reasons why people continue the aid.

The baseline state for the US giving military and economic aid to another country is because it is in our best interests to do so. Sympathy is not part of the equation, except in the minds of some such as yourself. And, we aren't talking about individual folks and why they support Israeli aid; we're talking about why the US nation does, and that's not because of how a few members of the place may sympathize with their struggle, I guarantee you.

Cycloptichorn

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I keep hearing Bush saying that the Dem timetable for getting out of Iraq is artificial.

His reasons for going into Iraq were, of course, artificial.

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Artificial? Really? I believe the basic reasons were (1) to attempt to beneficially change the political development trajectory of a key state in the islamic world, in the hope that it could influence others; and (2) to reinforce the security of Israel in its struggles with its neighbors.

What is artificial about these?

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georgeob1 wrote:

Artificial? Really? I believe the basic reasons were (1) to attempt to beneficially change the political development trajectory of a key state in the islamic world, in the hope that it could influence others; and (2) to reinforce the security of Israel in its struggles with its neighbors.

What is artificial about these?

Belief that there was any chance of success, especially given the mean of those running the enterprise.

The CiC told us the basic reason was US security, not the reasons you gave.

Cycloptichorn

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Re: "War" or "Occupation" - Which Is Cor

kelticwizard wrote:

Can we really call what we are doing in Iraq a war anymore, or do we have an occupation?

The WAR lasted about three weeks. What we've had since then is American soldiers having to compensate for the lack of policemen in the place.

As far as casualties, yeah, every one of them is a loss, but the US lost more people in the first hour or so of several of the island invasions of WW-II.

Some of our soldiers who come from demokkkrat-iinfested and controlled cities like Baltimore or LA or Detroit are likely to be statistically just as safe if not safer in Iraq than at home. There's no real way to call that a war. In wars, you lose thousands of people in a DAY.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

The baseline state for the US giving military and economic aid to another country is because it is in our best interests to do so.
Cycloptichorn

There is at least one overwhelming benefit which the US and the world at large can anticipate arising from our support of Israel: Sooner or later owning their own country has to cure the Jewish people of their traditional weakness for leftist political causes. PARTICULARLY with the current demokkkrat party trying to add slammites to their list of wholly owned victim groups...

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Our goal is not to rule in Iraq, or steal their resources. Our goal is to help the weak, fledgling democracy to survive, while anti-democratic forces, either intent on power, or intent on promoting Islamic fanaticism try to destroy it. Because we destroyed the dictatorship which governed Iraq, we assisted in the creation of a replacement government, one of the few democratically elected governments in the Middle East. Naturally, we are trying to protect it and make it viable before we leave. If there were no insurgents, we would certainly be long gone.

BTW, I did not deliberately put these jpegs in my post. I will assume that it has something to do with today's date.

Get real, the so called Coalition of the willing invaded then occupied the country that is Iraq; in no way is it a democracy and it never will be, certainly not while it is occupied by foreign invaders The Iraqi's have no idea what democracy is all about; more than likely, when they get rid of the invaders, it will become a Theocracy governed with elements of Sharia Law. As for the dictator they got rid of, under his rule the people had potable water, a sewage system, electricity, hospitals and there was no suicide bombers killing all in sundry The bottom line is all of the death and destruction in Iraq can be laid squarely at the feet of the Bush regime, if he never invaded the dictatorship would have sailed merrily along; incidentally one of America's allies in the Middle East is a dictatorship, that is Saudi Arabia, the American's remain friendly with the Saudi's because they need their oil; don't forget they were also friendly with Saddam Hussein when he was at war with Iran, they even supplied Saddam with weapons and munitions. Bush's invasion has failed and the best thing the US can do now is get out of Iraq and spare the lives of those young American's who are in a futile situation.

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"War" or "Occupation" - Which Is Correct?

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