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Use of Uniformed Military as Political Props?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 06:47 am
Quote:
Some Republican Congressmen and Senators will indeed put space between themselves and this administration, but in the end I'm pretty sure the next President will also be a Republican and as conscientious as this President has proven to be.

I would have to live several lifetimes, asherman, before bumping into another individual who could so comfortably stumble, for several embarrassing seconds, as the starring presence of an Oscar Wilde joke.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 06:54 am
Asherman wrote:
Actually Prados, the Constitution does make the President the Commander-in-Chief of the US military, and as CNC, he and not the Congress determines how that military is used. The Congress has the power of the purse, but can not use that power to dictate military policy. They can refuse to fund the military budget proposed by the President and his military advisers, but they can't usurp the Executive's responsibility.

Some simple questions that will prove your supposition is incorrect.
Can the congress designate funds for specific military programs or functions? The correct answer is yes. Over 90% of the military budget is designated for specific functions by Congress.
Can the congress designate funds for specific military operations? The correct answer is yes. They designated funds for the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Can the congress cease to fund specific military programs? Yes.
Can the congress put a timeline on the funding for military programs? of course.
Can the congress close bases by stopping funding? yes.
Can the congress put a timeline on closing bases? Yes.
Does the congress have to accept the budget proposed by the President? No.
Is the House the only place that appropriations can originate? Yes.

Congress dictates military policy all the time with funding that is restricted to certain areas or certain time frames.
Quote:

In this case, the Congress has passed legislation that in its conditional nature imposes its will on the President un-Constitutionally.
You have failed to show where this is unconstitutional. Congress can put whatever restrictions they want to on funding. They could say money will only go to a program on Tuesdays or only go to persons wearing blue underwear. There is no constitutional requirement that they fund anything and everything without restrictions.
Quote:

There is no question, whatsoever, that this bit of grandstanding will not make it through the Senate where more responsible representatives will kill it. In the unlikely event that such a bill arrived on the President's desk it will be vetoed. The Bill would then go back to Congress, and would not be over-ridden because the Democrats don't have enough votes for that. In the meantime, while the Democratic Party is busy obstructing the budget process, the military will find it ever more difficult to operate. That in turn probably would mean greater casualties lists, and an increase in pressure from those who want to kill Iraqi democratic government.
Our process requires compromise. If the President won't compromise then there will be no funding. Most intelligent people will blame the side that is not compromising which in this case is obviously the President.
Quote:

The President's speech urging the Democrats to be non-obstructive and send a clean bill forward was a timely effort to head off negative consequences by folks who hope to discredit the administration. The House passed this bill knowing full well that it would be vetoed, and that the military would be short funded while in the midst of combat operations.
It might well be and it is his right to do that. This thread however is about his use of uniformed military personnel as a political prop. The democrats in congress could call a news conference and fill the stage with injured vets in uniform and it would be the same thing, political props used as an attempt to create sympathy for their position.

Ash, would you be satisfied if the Congress said. We will fund 150,000 troops this month, 100,000 in 6 months, 50,000 in 12 months and only 10,000 advisors after that? Congress is obviously using just funding which we know they can do. They are not restricted to funding or not funding. They get to set the limits on the funding.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 07:05 am
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
Solely for their partisan pleasures? Geez. what kind of crap is that. Because you disagree with a bill doesn't make it partisan. It was passed per the rules of the House. That makes it valid legislation. The people elected the Congress and congress shouldn't be second guessed by its political opponents who friviously oppose legislation solely for their partisan pleasures. Rolling Eyes


Huh, bet you a dollar you didn't hold this opinion 5 months ago.


You can send the dollar to A2K. Any legislation passed per the rules of the House is valid legislation. I have enough respect for the majority of members of congress on both sides of the aisle to not believe they would misuse their office merely for their partisan pleasure. I might disagree with them but I would never accuse them of getting partisan pleasure from their actions.

Someday you might be able to understand satire McG. But then someday pigs could fly too.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 07:09 am
Quote:
Congress can dither and play to popular sentiment. They can deny the troops their needs, and in doing so may cause the death of our soldiers. I don't see how that will help the Democrats to win any election.


I don't see how you expect anyone to take you seriously Ash if you think elections have nothing to do with popular sentiment.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:06 am
Asherman has it pretty well pegged. If the people elect a president that wants to pull all troops out, then he will have the power to do it. Congress cannot stop him.

Just a thought, if military props are no longer allowed, I guess those jets flying over presidential inaugurations are now prohibited?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:36 am
okie wrote:
Asherman has it pretty well pegged. If the people elect a president that wants to pull all troops out, then he will have the power to do it. Congress cannot stop him.

Just a thought, if military props are no longer allowed, I guess those jets flying over presidential inaugurations are now prohibited?


Weren't the whole Winter Soldier hearings military props?
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:43 am
One big difference being those were phony and trumped up, baldimo.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 10:59 am
Asherman wrote (foolishly):
Quote:
There is no question, whatsoever, that this bit of grandstanding will not make it through the Senate where more responsible representatives will kill it.


Oh, is that so?

Ny Times

Quote:
Republicans to Rely on President Bush's Veto to Block Troop Withdrawal Plan


This bill WILL pass the Senate. The average American isn't as in to politics as we are, and will see one thing and one thing only: Bush vetoing a bill to help our troops because he doesn't like the idea of timelines, something which the majority of Americans ASKED to have put in place by the Dem Congress.

To say that this will be anything but a political loss for Republicans is the height of foolishness. I understand that it will give Republican pundits a bunch to yell about, but so what? They would have found something to complain about no matter what, and the country has for the most part eschewed the idea that the party which claims government can't work, has any ability to provide good governance whatsoever.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 11:13 am
Timelines which dictate to the executive branch how to wage a war, 21 Billion dollars of pork... yeah, it should be vetoed and sent back to congress to get back to what it is intended for. Money to fund the war. Either fund it, or don't, but quit with the bullsh!t.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 11:18 am
McGentrix wrote:
Timelines which dictate to the executive branch how to wage a war, 21 Billion dollars of pork... yeah, it should be vetoed and sent back to congress to get back to what it is intended for. Money to fund the war. Either fund it, or don't, but quit with the bullsh!t.


That's a great, if immaterial, opinion. Congress is doing nothing illegal or immoral with their actions.

Bush can have timelines or he can have no more money - period. In no other segment of our society would such idiotic and terrible leadership have been put up with for so long. There is no reason that he should have a free reign to screw things up worse any longer.

The best part is, if the Dems hold tough - which I believe they will - then Bush and the Republicans are simply screwed. I find accusations that the populace will blame the Democrats for doing exactly what that same populace has asked them to do to be nothing but wishful thinking from a party which is headed into a long minority status.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 11:40 am
Ash said that we have won the war, but have not yet won the occupation. That seems a bit farfetched inasmuch our troops have always had to dress in full combat attire, including weapons.

We are now in the middle of a civil war, with both sides targeting us. If we take sides, such as we did in Lebanon, things will get even worse. Doesn't all this say: Get out!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 06:00 pm
Would you give that advice to those considering aliya?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 04:42 am
Re military as props for political purposes...even where perpetrated by the military themselves...

Quote:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tillman28mar28,0,7003471.story?coll=la-home-nation
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 02:38 am
[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2583748#2583748]On March 26, Asherman[/url] wrote:
This Congressional Bill is not going to pass the Senate, because it's partisan political purposes are so evident.


[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/washington/30cong.html?pagewanted=print]On March 30, the New York Times[/url] wrote:
Defying Bush, Senate Passes Iraq Spending Measure

Full Article

Well, Asherman, this prediction certainly died young. Does this in any way affect your confidence in your other predictions?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 06:34 am
Quote:
Well, Asherman, this prediction certainly died young. Does this in any way affect your confidence in your other predictions?


Asherman (he has a tight red/white/blue lyrca suit with a large upper case A on the padded chest) can fry truth-trauma with his friggin laser eyes long before it can reach and harm him or any other innocents.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 11:41 am
Indeed, I was wrong about the Senate having the good sense not to pass funding Bill that attempts to dictate military strategy on the Executive Branch. Doubtless, I'm wrong on other matters as well sense I'm not omniscient.

The Senate and House Bills now have a good chance of reconciliation, and very well might land on the President's desk. I give the President credit for having the strength of will to Veto legislation that exceeds Congressional limitations and is not in the nation (and worlds) best interest.

Does being mistaken occasionally cause me to change my whole belief system? Nope. Even if the Democrats finally manage to hand a "victory" to the enemy, I will not change my opinion that that is the wrong thing to do. Shifting money from prosecution of the war on those dedicated to our destruction I believe will make it much more difficult to contain and defeat the Radical Islamic Movement (RIM).

First we abandoned Vietnam by popular demand. That saved some American lives, but it also seriously harmed our efforts to derail the Soviet Union's effort to impose Communism on the world. That pull-out cost the lives of many Vietnamese who worked with us to keep Vietnam out of the Communist camp. Around the world other allies began to question whether the US was still a reliable partner, and little conflicts sprang up as the Communist movement tested our will in other places. Once the Soviet Union fell their RIM clients no longer were reigned in. Attacks against Western and Israeli targets increased in number and severity, but we were drunk with the illusion that the end of Cold War might well be the end of war entirely. Encouraged by our pacifistic and timid responses to attacks, the RIM ratcheted up their operations and attacks on CONUS itself were made. Finally, on 9/11 they got our attention.

Now after a mere four years it appears that the RIM strategy for victory is succeeding. Their notion that America has become decadent and unwilling to pay the blood cost of war once a few body bags come home, and they've murdered enough innocent civilians. They've shifted responsibility for everything onto their victims. They've been very effective it seems in playing to both our strengths and weaknesses.

Their PR campaign and manipulation of the media as succeeded far better than their actual military ability to win. Emboldened by a US failure of confidence and will, they will continue with increased zeal to work a final victory for their version of Islam over the world's Infidels. What will we do then? Will the Utopian dreams of the Left dictate that Western Civilization be replaced with Radical Islamic States? Will the American People regain their honor and willingness to endure any sacrifice to rescue the planet from the RIM? It isn't too late, and at the moment it seems that the pressure on this President is mounting for another precipitate American withdrawal from conflict. What is now a struggle against a relatively small number of international thugs who do their murders in secret for fear of defeat, can metastasize into a larger and more capable enemy.

The one thing that can change my opinion is that if the Left and Democrats have their way, and Universal Peace descends on the Planet. Likely? Nope. Giving way to these people is the surest way to insure a far worse future than if Iraq costs us five times the current casualties and extends another 75 years into the future.

That's my opinion and I hope that I'm wrong. I would be very pleased to be mistaken about the probable outcome of abandoning the effort in Iraq and Southwest Asia, but the experiences of a lifetime and the study of history persuade me otherwise.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 11:50 am
Representative Ron Paul, republican/texas
Congress failed to meet its responsibilities four years ago, unconstitutionally transferring its explicit war power to the executive branch. Even though the administration started the subsequent pre-emptive war in Iraq, Congress bears the greatest responsibility for its lack of courage in fulfilling its duties. Since then Congress has obediently provided the funds and troops required to pursue this illegitimate war.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 12:39 pm
Quote:

That's my opinion and I hope that I'm wrong. I would be very pleased to be mistaken about the probable outcome of abandoning the effort in Iraq and Southwest Asia, but the experiences of a lifetime and the study of history persuade me otherwise.


Here's the deal: the 'probable' outcome you describe is still the 'probable' outcome whether we stay or leave.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 12:56 pm
Alright. Convince me that the probable outcomes are the same.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 01:02 pm
Asherman wrote:
Alright. Convince me that the probable outcomes are the same.

I find it odd that you as a conservative, who once described himself as a Jeffersonian Democrat, demand of the liberal Cycloptichorn to make the case against federal government intervention. (Whatever else the war in Iraq is, it's a major, major intervention by the US government.) The burden of proof, then, is on you. You make the case that there's still a peace to be won in Iraq.
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