Spain judge says Bush and Iraq war allies should face war...

However, I digress. Back to Zippos original post.

Do you recall the assurances offered so prodigiously by the supporters of the ICC a few years ago to those who feared this court so constituted would become an ungoverned and ungovernable assault on national sovereignty? We were assured that no legal action could be undertaken without the assent of the national government and that the court would never seek to expand its powers?

Doesn't read like that now.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

However, I digress. Back to Zippos original post.

Do you recall the assurances offered so prodigiously by the supporters of the ICC a few years ago to those who feared this court so constituted would become an ungoverned and ungovernable assault on national sovereignty? We were assured that no legal action could be undertaken without the assent of the national government and that the court would never seek to expand its powers?

Doesn't read like that now.

University of Pittsburgh wrote:

On Sunday, ICC Chief Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo [official profile; BBC profile] said President Bush and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair may one day face war crimes charges [JURIST report] before the International Criminal Court (ICC) [official website; JURIST news archive] at The Hague. Moreno-Ocampo said that the ICC could investigate allegations of war crimes stemming from the conduct of coalition forces in Iraq [JURIST news archive], so long as Iraq agrees to ratify the Rome Statute [text, PDF] and accede to ICC jurisdiction.

I suppose, George, you missed that part., especially where Moreno-Ocampo speakks about how it could work and what THEN, AFTERWARDS, COULD be done, namely "could investigate allegations of war crimes".

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

This definition is not compatable with your earlier definition of a Jew as one who embraces a certain religion. Many Zionists, and many of the early founders of Israel were non-religious. Were they not Jews?

Is the Israel so created and so defined necessarily a religious state? A theocracy? If so it is certainly an anachronism in the modern world.

It is a state where all Jews of any stripe are welcome. From ultra religious to non practicing. It is a state where one does not have worry about being persecuted because of the religious beliefs or ancestry. 1500 years of expulsions,massacres, burnings and other degradations has been a tough lesson that relying on the good offices of others is a weak foundation to depend upon.

As to who is a Jew? In the strict religious sense. Anyone born of a Jewish mother. Practicing or not. Or one who has converted according to religious practices.

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

I find that too fine a distinction. What than makes a Jew a Hebrew or a Hebrew a Jew?

IMO If one follows the Hebrew religion and one believes that all Jews [except converts] are descended from the original tribes they are indeed Hebrews. If all that was needed to be termed a Hebrew as you may be suggesting is to have descended from one of the original tribes. I would submit that Jesus and his disciples were Hebrews and that there are based upon that definition if it were valid the world is full of Hebrew Christians today.

Note: I may be misreading you.

Let us consider the origin of the name "Israel". It was given to Jacob in the Scriptures. (Interestingly, Jacob means "deceiver" or "trickster") His sons represented the 12 tribes of Israel. Among one of those 12 tribes was Joesph, the son sold to Egypt by his own brothers. Now, by definition, since Jacob became "Israel", Egypt is a part of that as Joesph married an Egyptian woman. It also concludes that there was never a physical country named Israel until 1948. "Israel" meant God's people wherever they may be.

95% of present day Israel's population descend from the Khazar tribe which originated from Mongolia. When they were driven from Mongolia, they settled in Eastern Europe. These are known today as Ashkenazi Jews. The Sephardic Jews originate from Spain. The Ashkenazis rule the roost, so to speak in Israel. The Sephardic are treated as an inferior people, despite the fact they resemble the original Semitic people moreso than the pale complexion of the Ashkenazis. The other 5% could very well be of Hebrew descent from the 12 tribes. (300,000 out of 6 million)

Zionists are a secular, political movement. If they read anything it would be the Talmud, and not the Torah. The Torah Jews do not accept Zionism as their representative and protest the Zionist hostilities against their brethren in the Middle East.

Invariably, it has become ambiguous to whether a Jew is a follower of Judaism or a race. The origins of a Jew are specifically Religious. "Israel" according to the the OT Scriptures means "God's chosen people". If a person is not "Religious" in any way, how can they be a part of "Israel"?

Therefore, present day secular Israel is a fraudulent attempt to steal the identity of "God's chosen" to justify their various unethical and immoral conduct against other people, whilst hiding behind the guise of the label "JEW". The Torah Jews recognize this fraud, thus, the reason why they protest Zionism whole heartedly.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

This definition is not compatable with your earlier definition of a Jew as one who embraces a certain religion. Many Zionists, and many of the early founders of Israel were non-religious.

Correct.

georgeob1 wrote:

Were they not Jews?

IMO, from what I have read, many will claim they are Jews, but they have an agenda. The Torah Jews outline this specifically in their websites.
www.jewsagainstzionism.com
www.nkusa.org

georgeob1 wrote:

Is the Israel so created and so defined necessarily a religious state? A theocracy? If so it is certainly an anachronism in the modern world.

Jerusalem is a Holy site that is recognized by all three major Religions. The entire state of Israel is built upon a Religious pretext, although the Holocaust of WWII was the catalyst which 'inked the deal' for enacting a Jewish Homeland. The irony is many of the Jewish Holocaust survivors were compensated very little compared to the innumerous Zionist organizations and influential Zionists who pulled the strings to make it happen.

It is also ironic that no Zionists were among the suffering Jews in the Concentration camps. They are also the reason why so many Jews were permitted to die at the hand of the Nazi regime. The Zionists ensured that many Jews were slaughtered so they could garner enough sympathy for a Jewish homeland in Palestine following the war. There are many quotes to substantiate that assertion.

0 Replies

Americanadian wrote:

It is also ironic that no Zionists were among the suffering Jews in the Concentration camps. They are also the reason why so many Jews were permitted to die at the hand of the Nazi regime. The Zionists ensured that many Jews were slaughtered so they could garner enough sympathy for a Jewish homeland in Palestine following the war. There are many quotes to substantiate that assertion.

I would just like to point this out as the craziest thing I have read today.

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
This definition is not compatable with your earlier definition of a Jew as one who embraces a certain religion. Many Zionists, and many of the early founders of Israel were non-religious. Were they not Jews?

Is the Israel so created and so defined necessarily a religious state? A theocracy? If so it is certainly an anachronism in the modern world.

It is a state where all Jews of any stripe are welcome. From ultra religious to non practicing. It is a state where one does not have worry about being persecuted because of the religious beliefs or ancestry. 1500 years of expulsions,massacres, burnings and other degradations has been a tough lesson that relying on the good offices of others is a weak foundation to depend upon.

As to who is a Jew? In the strict religious sense. Anyone born of a Jewish mother. Practicing or not. Or one who has converted according to religious practices.

Interesting...so by using that logic, Christians who have been slaughtered in superior numbers compared to Jews should have their own Homeland as well?

I have a rather long personal testimony of an Ashkenazi Jew who speaks of the incredible racism that exists in Israel. He was one of the "preferred Jews" being an Ashkenazi, however, he married a Sephardic Jewish woman, which made him inferior almost immediately in the opinion of fellow Ashkenazis. If one is an Ashkenazi and a card carrying Communist,
they will be most welcome in Israel. Consider their relationship with Russia over the past century, beginning with the Zionist/Russian ties in the Bolshevik Revolution.

0 Replies

McGentrix wrote:

Americanadian wrote:

It is also ironic that no Zionists were among the suffering Jews in the Concentration camps. They are also the reason why so many Jews were permitted to die at the hand of the Nazi regime. The Zionists ensured that many Jews were slaughtered so they could garner enough sympathy for a Jewish homeland in Palestine following the war. There are many quotes to substantiate that assertion.

I would just like to point this out as the craziest thing I have read today.

Certainly.

Just to recall the most prominent group with Zionist members, the Herbert-Baum-Group.

0 Replies

McGentrix wrote:

Americanadian wrote:

It is also ironic that no Zionists were among the suffering Jews in the Concentration camps. They are also the reason why so many Jews were permitted to die at the hand of the Nazi regime. The Zionists ensured that many Jews were slaughtered so they could garner enough sympathy for a Jewish homeland in Palestine following the war. There are many quotes to substantiate that assertion.

I would just like to point this out as the craziest thing I have read today.

Chaim Weizmann, the first president of Israel, made this Zionist policy very explicit:
The hopes of Europe's six million Jews are centered on emigration. I was asked: "Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?" I replied, "No." ... From the depths of the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it."

Chaim Weizmann reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937. Cited in Yahya, p. 55.

"One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland"
....Izaak Greenbaum

"If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews, 'I say, NO! and I say again NO!"

Izaak Greenbaum -- head of Jewish Agency Rescue Committee
February 18, 1943
Addressed to the Zionist Executive Council.

Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative." Ibid., p.149.

As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.

This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated:

"It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference ... It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws."

There's plety more McGentrix. All written by the Jews themselves. Crazy? Yep, the Zionists surely are. What's worse, they have nukes.

0 Replies

David Koker - a non-believing Jew, but Zionist (died early 1945 in Dachau).

You should read about him - and what he wrote.

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

David Koker - a non-believing Jew, but Zionist (died early 1945 in Dachau).

You should read about him - and what he wrote.

Got a link? or is it only available in paperback?

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

It is a state where all Jews of any stripe are welcome. From ultra religious to non practicing. It is a state where one does not have worry about being persecuted because of the religious beliefs or ancestry.

Provided of course that one's religion (if he has one) is Judiasm - and not Mohammedan or Christian. (I recognize that Israel is generally fair to its present citizens of whatever religion, however, in its determination to preserve at all costs the Jewish character of the state, it is inexorably drawn in to the unequal policies for immigration; fair treatment of the inhabitants of occupied territories; economic assistance and cultural freedom that have so far prevented any peaceful settlement with its neighbors. )

au1929 wrote:

As to who is a Jew? In the strict religious sense. Anyone born of a Jewish mother. Practicing or not. Or one who has converted according to religious practices.

And this contradicts the definition of what is a Jew that you offered above -- that was my point.

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I suppose, George, you missed that part., especially where Moreno-Ocampo speakks about how it could work and what THEN, AFTERWARDS, COULD be done, namely "could investigate allegations of war crimes".

I didn't miss anything. The deliberately misleading propaganda offered about the ICC inferred that no such investigation could occur without the explicit consent of the country of the accused. This was an obvious falsehood then, and it is merely confirmed now. Americans would never accept the judgement of a foreign court over their elected leaders under any conditions other than absolute defeat and surrender in a bloody war. That is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

0 Replies

I'm glad you don't expect such a behaviour from other countries, since US-judges act all international UN-courts.

0 Replies

McGentrix wrote:

Americanadian wrote:

It is also ironic that no Zionists were among the suffering Jews in the Concentration camps. They are also the reason why so many Jews were permitted to die at the hand of the Nazi regime. The Zionists ensured that many Jews were slaughtered so they could garner enough sympathy for a Jewish homeland in Palestine following the war. There are many quotes to substantiate that assertion.

I would just like to point this out as the craziest thing I have read today.

It's still early.

0 Replies

Walter,

I'm not sure to which courts you refer. We do participate in several international forums involving judicial procedures. However in no case is there compulsory jurisdiction over such matters. That is our objection to the ICC and that is the reason we have gone to such lengths to avoid it.

If you are suggesting that there is some element of hypocrisy in this, given the earlier rhetoric surrounding the post WWII trials of German and Japanese leaders, I will readily agree. That was really victor's justice, merely dressed up to conceal its reality.

This Spanish judge (Balthasar or whatever) appears to be very selective in his causes. What has he said or done about Robert Mugabwe, or the leaders of Sudan? I believe there is equal or (more likely) greater hypocrisy to be found on that side of the issue.

There is also the question of sins of omission and those of comission. Who will account for the morality of Europe's paralysis in the face of genocide in Bosnia and Croatia? Institutions such as the ICC inherently can't deal with such lapses, and the assumption that they will significantly protect humanity from such evil is negated by this imbalance and bias. Indeed they may well merely provide the timid with a suitable excuse for inaction at grave moments.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

I'm not sure to which courts you refer.

For instance, Patricia M. Wald, before a judge on the District of Columbia Federal Appeals Court, shared the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal as a judge.

Theodor Meron was the president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) until 2005. and was a judge in the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.
He now serves as a judge on the ICTY.

georgeob1 wrote:

This Spanish judge (Balthasar or whatever) appears to be very selective in his causes.

Wikipedia on Baltasar Garzon, who currently sits on Spain's highest criminal court.

0 Replies

The courts to which you refer were both commissioned by the Security Council in actions which the U.S. supported. Again our issue is with the principle of independent compulsory jurisdiction - a perogative that I believe the U.S. will never yield to any international judicial body. It is certainly OK for others to agree and accept this for themselves, but quite unacceptable for them to impose it on us.

I found nothing in Balthasar's curriculum vitae to alter my opinion, or to inspire confidence in his objectivity or presumed lack of personal ambition. It is interesting to note that he was rather tough on the Basque dissident groups - even to the extent of shutting down their newspaper. He appears to have another standard for the troubles and challenges certain other governments face - and, even there, to be very selective in his various judicial excesses. He would have done well in the Inquisition.

0 Replies

I know: even relatives of US-personals are not under the jurisdiction of the country where they live.

I agrre about your view of the Spanish judge - which, however, might mainly be sourced in our different legal/jurdical system.

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I agrre about your view of the Spanish judge - which, however, might mainly be sourced in our different legal/jurdical system.

I wouldn't blame European judicial institutions for the selfish ambition, authoritarianism, and hypocrisy of this rather contemptable judge.

0 Replies

Spain judge says Bush and Iraq war allies should face war...

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know