The cost of an enforcement first immigration policy

Quote:

I get the point. Your view of these illegal people is completely ruled by the fact that they illegally broke a law-- to the point that you can't even refer to the illegal without putting an illegal adjective on any illegal word that refers to illegals.

I'm sorry, but the word 'illegal' is more than just an adjective in this case.

From now on, we should call mobsters 'businessmen' and shoplifters are actually just 'shoppers.'

There is a real, legal, and moral difference between entering a country in order to take advantage of the fine living conditions there legally, and doing it illegally. Just because you are fine and fast friends with many illegal aliens doesn't make what they are doing a hair more correct or excusable.

And you know that I say this as someone who is looking to MAKE those people legal. I don't have anything against them per se; but I don't choose to pretend that they are not criminals like you do.

Look, I smoke dope. Marijuana. I like it. It's far superior to alcohol. It shouldn't be illegal. It's a travesty that it is. But, does that make me any less of a criminal for doing it? Nope!

Cycloptichorn

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Cylco,

Your drug use is illegal... because you are breaking the law.

This doesn't make you illegal, and doesn't mean we should treat you with any less courtesy or compassion. The only difference between your illegal act, and the immigrants illegal act is the motivation. Immigrants are breaking the law to escape poverty and provide hope for their families... where you are breaking the law because you find it pleasurable.

And you should rest assured that if you were the subject of an armed raid by Federal agents, and if you were handcuffed and flown that day thousands of miles from friends and family. And, if your kids were unecessarily hurt because of the excessiveness of the agents...

People like me would have the same compassion for you, then we have for these families.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Cylco,

Your drug use is illegal... because you are breaking the law.

This doesn't make you illegal, and doesn't mean we should treat you with any less courtesy or compassion. The only difference between your illegal act, and the immigrants illegal act is the motivation. Immigrants are breaking the law to escape poverty and provide hope for their families... where you are breaking the law because you find it pleasurable.

And you should rest assured that if you were the subject of an armed raid by Federal agents, and if you were handcuffed and flown that day thousands of miles from friends and family. And, if your kids were unecessarily hurt because of the excessiveness of the agents...

People like me would have the same compassion for you, then we have for these families.

It isn't that I don't have compassion for these families. I do. I just think it's a mistake to pretend as if they haven't done anything wrong.

I have compassion for everyone. But that doesn't mean people don't deserve what they get, when they break the law and are caught doing it. Not the same thing at all.

I wonder; why don't people stay in their own countries and work to make them better? Why do they try and take a short-cut into a society which already put in that work? It's a lack of responsibility on their part, and admission that their own personal life is worth more to them than the lives of the descendants of the citizens of that country...

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Cylco,

Your drug use is illegal... because you are breaking the law.

This doesn't make you illegal, and doesn't mean we should treat you with any less courtesy or compassion. The only difference between your illegal act, and the immigrants illegal act is the motivation. Immigrants are breaking the law to escape poverty and provide hope for their families... where you are breaking the law because you find it pleasurable.

And you should rest assured that if you were the subject of an armed raid by Federal agents, and if you were handcuffed and flown that day thousands of miles from friends and family. And, if your kids were unecessarily hurt because of the excessiveness of the agents...

People like me would have the same compassion for you, then we have for these families.

It isn't that I don't have compassion for these families. I do. I just think it's a mistake to pretend as if they haven't done anything wrong.

I have compassion for everyone. But that doesn't mean people don't deserve what they get, when they break the law and are caught doing it. Not the same thing at all.

I wonder; why don't people stay in their own countries and work to make them better? Why do they try and take a short-cut into a society which already put in that work? It's a lack of responsibility on their part, and admission that their own personal life is worth more to them than the lives of the descendants of the citizens of that country...

Cycloptichorn

cyclo, ditto on the bud. and like you, even though it's basically a $100 fix it ticket here in california, if i get popped, well... i knowingly broke the law and will have to pay up (and whatever the pay up is will be decided by the law). i got nobody to blame but myself.

hmmm... "breaking the law to escape _ _ _ _ _" makes breaking the law excusable? i can see myself using that one in court; "but judge, i was just burnin' some chronic to escape my crappy day, dude. wanna hit ?"

"judge says; "oh welll, if you were havin' a crappy day, spark it up, by all means. just' stay outta my fridge."

let's see, what else can we use the "just wanna escape poverty" clause on....

how about theft ? armed robbery? embezzlement ? war profiteering ?

sure. why not ? all of theses activities are sure to relieve poverty.

==

eb, we've been over this all before. you go on about compassion. but last year, when i tried to discuss compassion for the poor and indigent that were born and raised in america, you said i was "full of it".

then you proceeded to go in a general way to the "racist" spiel.

but ya know what ya choose to ignore ? an awful lot of those people i was referring to are of african, latino, asian, middle eastern and, most criminally, american indian ethnicity.

where is your compassion for them ? are they less eligiable for your caring ? is the necessary removal of a child from parents due to poverty any less the "breaking of families" that you refer to all the time ?

is it any less dehumanizing to warehouse children in sometimes abusive and "for profit only" foster homes ?

and like cyclo, i wonder why rather than work to improve their home country, people choose to take the easy way, and enter a more prosperous country illegally. i'm sure you'll have an excuse for it, but frankly, living here in l.a., i don't think you'll offer one that i haven't heard before.

i would, however, be very supportive of using funds that are currently used for the social services given to illegals being instead used to help countries like mexico to improve the lot of it's people. and perhaps funds beyond that amount as well.

see, unlike some, i don't like the idea of viewing these people as being too slow or dimwitted to take care of themselves. may need a little help getting started, but all the same, they are not stupid children.

dunno, maybe it's the whole "give a man a fish and he eats for a day. teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" thing.

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In am in an debate with two illegal drug users, both of who are arguing for harsher law enforcement.

This has got to be one of the the strangest discussions I have ever had, even by internet standards.

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ebrown_p wrote:

In am in an debate with two illegal drug users, both of who are arguing for harsher law enforcement.

This has got to be one of the the strangest discussions I have ever had, even by internet standards.

so, i take it that you have no meaningful response to what we are saying then ?

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ebrown_p wrote:

In am in an debate with two illegal drug users, both of who are arguing for harsher law enforcement.

This has got to be one of the the strangest discussions I have ever had, even by internet standards.

Yes, it is strange. ebrown, even those of Democratic and liberal tendencies see this for what it is. It is illegal. For good reasons. And your compassion arguments do not fly. If you have compassion, you would desire that we would allow a stop illegal immigration and instead have a sound legal immigration policy, as this would help everybody in terms of everyone playing by the rules, which would enhance wage scales, benefits, taxes to support infrastructure, proper insurance, drivers licenses, and last but not least, a more secure border in terms of stopping terrorists, drug runners, and other criminals from entering the country.

Then we would have less children suffering, less people dying in the desert, less people dying in overloaded vans, trucks, and other vehicles, less illegals in our prisons, less citizens suffering from and paying for uninsured and non-tax paying illegals, the list goes on. The vast majority of hard working illegals that care about their families would surely prefer it to be that way. No longer would they be in the shadows as you like to talk about. Surely compassion would be in favor of that.

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No... nor do I believe that there is a meaningful response to what you guys are saying.

There is a basic disconnect in your position...

The war on drugs-- the idea that we can stop drug use by making penalties harsher, has simply failed. The result in that the US has the highest incarceration rate of any developed country... with millions of young men and women wasting their lives in prison. Drug use in the US hasn't gone down, and unscrupulous businessmen (i.e. dealers and gangs) are the ones who most benefit from drug enforcement as profits soar.

Now you say it is OK for you to use illegal drugs because you will accept a $100 slap on the risk.

The obvious implication is that if we want to stop you from using drugs, we should send the Feds in, handcuff you and traumatize your kids.

Is harsh enforcement that breaks up more families, hurts more communities and wastes more lives the solution?

Would giving you a real harsh penalty (like prison or deportation) be either ethical or effective response to your illegal drug use?

The idea that you flout the law for your own goofy pleasure... and then condemn others for doing the same to feed their families is unbelievable.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Look, I smoke dope. Marijuana. I like it. It's far superior to alcohol. It shouldn't be illegal. It's a travesty that it is. But, does that make me any less of a criminal for doing it? Nope!

Cycloptichorn

I am disappointed, cyclops. I have worked around potheads, and they are delusional in terms of how they perceive that it affects them. Perhaps you don't do enough to consider yourself a pothead, but any amount of mind altering drug is not a good thing.

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ebrown_p wrote:

No... nor do I believe that there is a meaningful response to what you guys are saying.

There is a basic disconnect in your position...
......Now you say it is OK for you to use illegal drugs because you will accept a $100 slap on the risk.

The idea that you flout the law for your own goofy pleasure... and then condemn others for doing the same to feed their families is unbelievable.

as usual, you sieze on the least important thing said and ignore what you don't want to, or cannot defend. total cop out.

at least i'm being honest about what i'm doing.

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okie wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
In am in an debate with two illegal drug users, both of who are arguing for harsher law enforcement.

This has got to be one of the the strangest discussions I have ever had, even by internet standards.

Yes, it is strange. ebrown, even those of Democratic and liberal tendencies see this for what it is. It is illegal. For good reasons. And your compassion arguments do not fly. If you have compassion, you would desire that we would allow a stop illegal immigration and instead have a sound legal immigration policy, as this would help everybody in terms of everyone playing by the rules, which would enhance wage scales, benefits, taxes to support infrastructure, proper insurance, drivers licenses, and last but not least, a more secure border in terms of stopping terrorists, drug runners, and other criminals from entering the country.

Then we would have less children suffering, less people dying in the desert, less people dying in overloaded vans, trucks, and other vehicles, less illegals in our prisons, less citizens suffering from and paying for uninsured and non-tax paying illegals, the list goes on. The vast majority of hard working illegals that care about their families would surely prefer it to be that way. No longer would they be in the shadows as you like to talk about. Surely compassion would be in favor of that.

Okie, I want to separate my response to you from my response from my reaction to the the hypocrisy of the other people here.

I basically agree with this last post. There are two questions raised:

1) What is a sound immigration policy. (and we will no doubt discuss that in the next coming weeks)

2) How do we get there?

I understand the argument that harsh enforcement will fix the problem. I don't buy this and I don't believe there is an example where this is the case. The war on drugs is a perfect example.

My point is that the immigration raids (which is the beginning of the deport them all solution) are disporportionately cruel. They are not something that is acceptable to the values of most Americans.

Not only are they cruel-- they are also useless. The effects they have are to harshly punish a small number of people and their kids... and to push immigrants further into the shadows.

I am all in favor of a sound, compassionate immigration policy that will end the need for illegal immigrants and mean there are no illegal immigrants living in the shadows.

These raids... and the very idea that you can use harsh punishment to force 12 million people and their families out of the country.. are a step in the wrong direction.

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Look, I smoke dope. Marijuana. I like it. It's far superior to alcohol. It shouldn't be illegal. It's a travesty that it is. But, does that make me any less of a criminal for doing it? Nope!

Cycloptichorn

I am disappointed, cyclops. I have worked around potheads, and they are delusional in terms of how they perceive that it affects them. Perhaps you don't do enough to consider yourself a pothead, but any amount of mind altering drug is not a good thing.

I disagree 100%. Alcohol, stimulants, and other drugs have been with mankind since the beginning of time.

You wouldn't have any problem with someone tossing down a couple of beers a few times a week. And why not? It's no big deal. Same thing with the dope.

Ebrown,

Quote:

I am all in favor of a sound, compassionate immigration policy that will end the need for illegal immigrants and mean there are no illegal immigrants living in the shadows.

This is impossible, since a significant portion of those who cross the border are criminals. There will never be an end to illegal immigration unless enforcement is part of the issue.

I have a feeling that a large part of the reason that you are so far out on this one is that your personal biases - undoubtedly based upon your familial and friendly connections - have overwhelmed your judgment and your reason. This makes you state ridiculous positions such as:

Quote:

Now you say it is OK for you to use illegal drugs because you will accept a $100 slap on the risk.

You apparently don't get it at all. Noone said it was 'okay' to use drugs. We most specifically said that it's not okay, we realize that, and we chose to do it anyways. If we get caught, we pay the price.

You are claiming that those who sneak into America - and they are sneaking in, as they have no legal nor moral right to enter our territory without the permission of the gov't - shouldn't have to pay the price for breaking a law that they knew they were breaking. It's YOU making the argument that breaking the law is 'okay,' not us.

I suggest you attempt to take a step back, and imagine how you would expect the French government to treat you if you illegally immigrated to France and got caught. Would you ever do such a thing? Why not? If you did get caught, you wouldn't expect to be punished?

I know that conditions are bad in the home country - work to make them better. Illegally entering another country, forcing your children to live a shadow life where their parents could be taken from them, is immoral and wrong. It is most definitely the parents' fault that their kids are suffering; the fact that ICE isn't the best-run organization doesn't change the responsibility.

Cycloptichorn

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Look, I smoke dope. Marijuana. I like it. It's far superior to alcohol. It shouldn't be illegal. It's a travesty that it is. But, does that make me any less of a criminal for doing it? Nope!

Cycloptichorn

I am disappointed, cyclops. I have worked around potheads, and they are delusional in terms of how they perceive that it affects them. Perhaps you don't do enough to consider yourself a pothead, but any amount of mind altering drug is not a good thing.

you could be right about this. i always seem to be much more handsome following a couple of puffs. later... ehhhh, not so much.. Laughing

mind altering drugs are of many types, okie.

a 75 year old single malt is a mind altering drug as well. so is absynth. both are of the alcohol variety of mind altering drugs. one is legal in the u.s., the other is not. though it is legal in other countries.

would you agree that though both are "drugs", one is quite dangerous and that the other is not?

it is interesting to note that, unlike alcohol, you cannot overdose on the solitary use of marijuana.

that said, and possibly hypocritically, i'm not in favor of the legalization of drugs such as cocaine, heroin, crystal meth etc. those...well, i've seen a lot of bad things come out of their abuse.

but that's for another thread. back to illegal immigration.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I know that conditions are bad in the home country - work to make them better. Illegally entering another country, forcing your children to live a shadow life where their parents could be taken from them, is immoral and wrong. It is most definitely the parents' fault that their kids are suffering; the fact that ICE isn't the best-run organization doesn't change the responsibility.

Cycloptichorn

thanks for bringing this idea up, cyclo.

as i may have mentioned before, ms. dtom works at our local community junior college. esl and ged are the biggest areas for her particular department.

wanna talk about heartbreaking? it's unbelievable how many students were brought here as babies or adolescents illegally; have grown up here, are fully "american kids" in every way but their legal status.

unfortunately, they may have been able to get around the legalities to a certain point, but too often they find themselves fully ready to move on to the next step such as the completion of their degrees or a job that requires a background check. which a lot of jobs in so. cal. do require due to the nature of the work.

illegal status is the gift that keeps on giving i guess. Confused

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ebrown_p wrote:

I understand the argument that harsh enforcement will fix the problem. I don't buy this and I don't believe there is an example where this is the case. The war on drugs is a perfect example.

ebrown, I reduced the argument down to this one point, because I believe it is the key to solving the problem, or at least reducing the problem significantly. As has been said, there will always be illegal aliens, but the question here is just how severe will it be. Enforcement of laws never eliminate crime, but they can greatly reduce crime.

The key here is not just strong enforcement of arresting illegals. I believe that really is a lost cause if we look the other way while business hire illegals in a big way. In other words, solve the demand problem, and the supply will tend to dry up. As long as there is a big demand, and we do nothing to enforce the demand illegalities, then it is futile to attack the problem at the supply end of the problem.

The same is true with drugs. As long as there is a huge demand for drugs in this country, the people illegally selling the drugs will find a way to get them here. I do not advocate no drug interdiction at all, but if that is the only thing we do, it is a futile effort. Punishment under the law for illegal drug use must be a key element in the fighting of the drug problem. As you say, that is another subject for another time, but punishment must fit the crime, and I agree there are degrees of severity of drugs.

Enforcement of illegally hiring illegal aliens should be much easier than enforcing drug use because hiring is a more open societal function than drug use can be, often done in peoples private homes. But on the job, there are many people that are aware of who is being hired, and if penalties are stiff, the problem would virtually evaporate very quickly in my opinion. Here again, the punishment must fit the crime, and the government should institute methods whereby employers can readily verify the status of people. Knowing violations should be more serious, or knowing ignorance of the checking should be serious, and repeat offenders should be hit big time. Corporations can be penalized big time with heavy tax consequences without having to throw individuals in jail. There are many effective means not being used.

Again, institute a healthy legal immigration system, and everyone ends up happier and there should be no losers, except for people that want to break many laws besides the one we are talking about, including hire people at substandard wages, avoiding taxes, avoid the cost of insurance, and lots of things.

A sound immigration policy is perhaps increasing the numbers to accommodate most of the qualified that want to come here and work, and make things better for themselves. Anyone with a criminal record should be rejected. They would therefore need to provide evidence of their record to get here, and for a time after being here in order to stay here and gain permanent citizenship. I know there would be problems with the best way to do this, but it is worth our best efforts to accomplish.

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The cost of an enforcement first immigration policy

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