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I'm not a Christian but I play one on TV.

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 05:31 pm
jespah wrote:
So sorry. Want some hamentaschen?


Got any apricot? I'm not a fan of the date ones. :wink:

That reminds me, I need to reserve a lamb soon...
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 05:36 pm
Sure thing, I generally just eat the poppy seed ones. 'Course when I was a more strict vegetarian we didn't do a shank bone on Passover. But a small cube of tofu looks, well, kinda strange on a seder plate.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 05:39 pm
Tofu... Ewwwwwww! Just soooo wrong.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 05:45 pm
It just gives the whole Ten Commandments story an odd, New Age-y kinda twist.

And thou shalt smear the doors of your houses with tofu juice.

It's just wrong.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 06:10 pm
Remind me to wear gloves when visiting Jespah.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 06:13 pm
It's safe, we use real mezuzot and do not do the tofu smearing thing. Unless, of course, you enjoy wearing gloves.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 08:14 pm
fishin wrote:
real life wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The timeline:(once more)

Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. His death recorded as having taken place at the 9th hour (3PM).

Joseph went back into the city after His death, and asked Pilate for the body. Having received permission, he returned to the crucifixion site and interred the body in a tomb he owned, which was nearby. This all took some time, so the interment took place just as the Passover was to begin (6PM).

The first day of Passover is both a day and a night (24 hours).

The day after Passover the women prepared spices. There would not have been time for them after the death at 3PM to travel back to the city, purchase, transport and prepare spices in the 3 hours that remained of the day. They would not have done so on the Passover either. To say that they would have had burial spices in their homes already on a regular basis is rather absurd. They would have needed to purchase them somewhere in the city, transport them home and prepare them, the preparation process is a somewhat involved process. It ain't Insta-Spice.

The day after Passover is both a day and a night (24 hours).


The next day was the weekly Sabbath, a day and a night (24 hours).

The day after the Sabbath, the women brought the spices to the tomb, but found it empty.

-----------------------------------------------------

There is no support in scripture for a Friday-Sunday timeline.

You may believe it if you wish.


There is absolutely NO support anywhere in the Bible for your insertion of two days here but you don't seem to have any issues with doing that. Your interpretation of biblical events a wish in it's entireity. In fact it is in direct contradiction to Luke 23:54-56.


The text reads: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body

Here it is plainly stated that the women had to buy the spices.

They didn't have spices for preparing a dead body already in their homes (are you kidding?)

This was done AFTER the holy day, i.e. the first day of Passover, also considered a high Sabbath (the term Preparation day is used in several gospels to describe the day Jesus was crucified, i.e. the day BEFORE the first day of Passover. The term Preparation day was not referring to an ordinary Friday prior to an ordinary Saturday sabbath.)

Since the women had to purchase and prepare the spices, it is not possible to maintain that they traveled back to the city, purchased the spices, transported them home and then prepared them all in the time between 3PM and 6PM. And that being only AFTER they had seen the body laid in the tomb.

To get the body in the tomb, Joseph traveled to Herod after seeing Christ was dead, asked for permission to take the body, then returned and interred the body in the tomb he owned nearby. This alone would have taken several hours at least, and the women could not start back to the city to buy and prepare spices until they saw the body laid in the tomb (if you follow the text).

Therefore, the women had to have prepared the spices on the day following the Passover, then rested on the ordinary sabbath and went to the tomb after sabbath was past.

Three days and three nights were the prediction Christ made, and the texts agree with this.

There is no contradiction between any of the texts, if you interpret them correctly.

If you try to maintain a Friday-Sunday timeline, you're contradicting Matt 12 before you go anywhere else.

The Friday-Sunday timeline is a Catholic tradition, but is nowhere in scripture.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 10:36 pm
real life wrote:
The text reads: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body

Here it is plainly stated that the women had to buy the spices.

They didn't have spices for preparing a dead body already in their homes (are you kidding?)

This was done AFTER the holy day,


Bullshit. Post a link to any on-line Bible where it reads as you claim. I've done so at least 3 times in this thread already. You don't because you are lying. They didn't have spices in their home already? Really?

You see, your entire argument here rests on my contradiction of Matthew 12:20 while at the same time you have no problem making claims that contradict Matthew 27, Luke 23 and Mark 15. So where is there more likely to be an error? Did Matthew error? If so, in where verse? And if it is in Matthew 27 then did Luke and Mark also make the exact same error? You see, your your claim that the women had to go buy the spices to hold then all three of these Gospels have to be wrong. Interestingly enough in John he says that Nicodermus brought the spices and they were applied to the wrapping put on Jesus' body when he is placed in the tomb by Joseph so if the women had to go buy spices then certianly Nicodermus had to as well so John must be wrong as well right?

Quote:
i.e. the first day of Passover, also considered a high Sabbath (the term Preparation day is used in several gospels to describe the day Jesus was crucified, i.e. the day BEFORE the first day of Passover. The term Preparation day was not referring to an ordinary Friday prior to an ordinary Saturday sabbath.)


Thank you for repeating what I posted above already. I don't know what you think it proves as far as supporting your case however, since it contradicts everything you've said thusfar and, as you will see, loses your entire argument for you in just a second here.

Quote:
Since the women had to purchase and prepare the spices, it is not possible to maintain that they traveled back to the city, purchased the spices, transported them home and then prepared them all in the time between 3PM and 6PM.


And once again all these claims that they had to travel and buy spices is a fabrication which the quoted passages I previoulsy posted show to be false and for which you have yet to post a single authoritive link to.

Quote:

To get the body in the tomb, Joseph traveled to Herod after seeing Christ was dead, asked for permission to take the body, then returned and interred the body in the tomb he owned nearby. This alone would have taken several hours at least, and the women could not start back to the city to buy and prepare spices until they saw the body laid in the tomb (if you follow the text).


Again, more ignorance of this Bible you claim to know so well. Joseph didn't go to see Herod at all.

Matthew 27:57-58:
"27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered."


So according to the Gospels Joseph went to see Pilate - not Herod as you claim. And doing so wouldn't have taken all that long since Pilate was right there in the town they had all just come from. And of course, the women didn't have to travel to town to buy spices because that claim is something that you fabricated.

Quote:

Therefore, the women had to have prepared the spices on the day following the Passover, then rested on the ordinary sabbath and went to the tomb after sabbath was past.


And again, your claim that the spices were prepared on the "day after Passover" (which would be the following weekend but you don't seem to grasp that point) has no holding in any of the Gospels.

Beyond that, you had better back up and reread your own claim up above about how the first day of Passover is the high Sabbath. There is no high Sabbath followed the next day by an ordinary Sabbath so this is just more bullshit on your part. Since you have admitted above that the Crucifiction was on Preperation Day , that the Preperation Day is the day before the first day of Passover and that the first day of Passover is the Sabbath you are out of luck here. You can't have it both ways. By your own admission you just lost two days and proved my argument for me. Thanks for playing!

Quote:
Three days and three nights were the prediction Christ made, and the texts agree with this.

There is no contradiction between any of the texts, if you interpret them correctly.

If you try to maintain a Friday-Sunday timeline, you're contradicting Matt 12 before you go anywhere else.

The Friday-Sunday timeline is a Catholic tradition, but is nowhere in scripture.


"If you interpret them correctly"?? lmao What a crock! You play moving targets - constantly claiming something is written somewhere in the Bible yet you never post a link to or quote to any specific passage and when it is proven that the Bible says something other than what you claim you just shrug it off that it is somewhere else.

Here's a newsflash for you - You've already proven my argument for me by trying to fabricate things. You managed to get yourself so confused in your web of lies that you managed to eek out the truth by mistake.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 10:43 pm
There's another problem.


Mark 15:42-47
When evening had come, and since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he had been dead for some time. When he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. Then Joseph bought a linen cloth, and taking down the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth, and laid it in a tomb that had been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid.


Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid. Keep this in mind.

Later from John 19:38-42
After these things, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, though a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate to let him take away the body of Jesus. Pilate gave him permission; so he came and removed his body. Nicodemus, who had at first come to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds. They took the body of Jesus and wrapped it with the spices in linen cloths, according to the burial custom of the Jews. Now there was a garden in the place where he was crucified, and in the garden there was a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid. And so, because it was the Jewish day of Preparation, and the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

The women saw Joseph laying Jesus in the tomb (Mark 15:47), and then came on Sunday with to do the anointing :
Mark 16:1 (Luke 23:56-24:1)
When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.


Why? Mary Magdalene saw Joseph wrap the body and put it in the tomb. In Mark Joseph had the linen, in John he had linen and spices (and Nicodemus). Wouldn't Mary Magdalene had known that the body was already anointed by Joseph and would not bought spices to do the same on Sunday?

Was she there in the Mark verse and not there in the John verse? did Joseph have spices or not? Isn't it supposed to be two accounts of the same event?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 11:02 pm
Pauligirl wrote:
There's another problem.


Mark 15:42-47
When evening had come, and since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he had been dead for some time. When he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. Then Joseph bought a linen cloth, and taking down the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth, and laid it in a tomb that had been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid.


Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid. Keep this in mind.

Later from John 19:38-42
After these things, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, though a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate to let him take away the body of Jesus. Pilate gave him permission; so he came and removed his body. Nicodemus, who had at first come to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds. They took the body of Jesus and wrapped it with the spices in linen cloths, according to the burial custom of the Jews. Now there was a garden in the place where he was crucified, and in the garden there was a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid. And so, because it was the Jewish day of Preparation, and the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

The women saw Joseph laying Jesus in the tomb (Mark 15:47), and then came on Sunday with to do the anointing :
Mark 16:1 (Luke 23:56-24:1)
When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.


Why? Mary Magdalene saw Joseph wrap the body and put it in the tomb. In Mark Joseph had the linen, in John he had linen and spices (and Nicodemus). Wouldn't Mary Magdalene had known that the body was already anointed by Joseph and would not bought spices to do the same on Sunday?

Was she there in the Mark verse and not there in the John verse? did Joseph have spices or not? Isn't it supposed to be two accounts of the same event?


This is a very well known contradiction in the Bible and they are supposed to be accounts of the same events (which btw, negates the need for the "Later in John". It wasn't later, it was the telling of the same event by different people. Wink )

John says Nicodemus brought the spices and then Joseph used them to wrap the body when it is laid in the tomb.

The other three gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) all say that the women left to prepare the spices and then returned with them the morning after the Sabbath (Sunday). They make no mention of Nicodemus at all.

I've seen a few writings trying to explain the differences between John and the other three but none of them seem very convincing.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 10:31 am
Pauligirl posted the same verse I did, fishin.

How come you didn't tell her it was bs?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 10:48 am
real life wrote:
Pauligirl posted the same verse I did, fishin.

How come you didn't tell her it was bs?


Pauligirl asked about a specific contradiction between John and Mark (along with Matthew and Luke) that muddles whether the spices were applied by Joseph on the day of the crucifiction or by Mary et. al. at a later time - a very well known contradiction in the Bible.

She didn't claim that the Gospels say that Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, she didn't try to fabricate a a 2nd Sabbath day, she didn't try to claim that the Sabbath and the 1st day of Passover were different days, she didn't claim that anyone had to go buy spices. These are all claims you have made.

The distinctions between her post and those you have made here, are so clear that your piddly weaping is laughable.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 12:21 pm
fishin,

You repeated the claim over and over that I 'fabricated' a verse saying the women went to buy spices.

But when Pauligirl posted the same verse, you didn't accuse her of lying.

How do you explain the existence of the verse you claim I 'fabricated'?

Why don't you simply admit that the verse reads exactly as I posted it?

Tell it like it is. You jumped the gun to accuse me of lying, and you were in error due to your hasty effort to find fault with me.

If you cannot admit this fact which is in black and white for all to see, your credibility is in serious disrepair.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 02:16 pm
real life wrote:
fishin,

You repeated the claim over and over that I 'fabricated' a verse saying the women went to buy spices.

But when Pauligirl posted the same verse, you didn't accuse her of lying.

How do you explain the existence of the verse you claim I 'fabricated'?

Why don't you simply admit that the verse reads exactly as I posted it?

Tell it like it is. You jumped the gun to accuse me of lying, and you were in error due to your hasty effort to find fault with me.

If you cannot admit this fact which is in black and white for all to see, your credibility is in serious disrepair.



I didn't even look at that line in Pauligirl's post. I addressed the 1st two paragraphs. However, maybe if you had cited the relevant text in your earlier post I could have eliminated your confusion earlier. The translation of "bought spices" in Mark 16:1 only appaers in some versions of the bible. In others there is no mention of anything being bought, some say "purchased" and in others still the word is "brought", not "bought" . Of course Mark is also the only of the four Gospels that says either "brought" or "bought". Matthew, Luke and John make no mention of where any of the spices came from.

Not that this really matters since Mark 16:1 doesn't help your argument that Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days/3 nights. Your contention has been that they bought spices after Passover and before the Sabbath. http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2553019#2553019 .

Even if one accepts that version of Mark 16:1, it says they bought spices AFTER the Sabbath was over. There is no way any purchase/preperation for the spices could have added to the timeline and created another full day for Jesus' body to be in the tomb as you have insisted. Everyone, including yourself, has stipulated that the body wasn't in the tomb the morning after the Sabbath.

Don't worry yourself about my credibility. It'll do just fine. You however, have none.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 11:07 pm
real life wrote:
fishin,

You repeated the claim over and over that I 'fabricated' a verse saying the women went to buy spices.

But when Pauligirl posted the same verse, you didn't accuse her of lying.

How do you explain the existence of the verse you claim I 'fabricated'?

Why don't you simply admit that the verse reads exactly as I posted it?

Tell it like it is. You jumped the gun to accuse me of lying, and you were in error due to your hasty effort to find fault with me.

If you cannot admit this fact which is in black and white for all to see, your credibility is in serious disrepair.


Mary Magdalene saw Joseph wrap the body and put it in the tomb. In Mark Joseph had the linen, in John he had linen and spices (and Nicodemus). Wouldn't Mary Magdalene had known that the body was already anointed by Joseph and would not bought spices to do the same on Sunday?

Was she there in the Mark verse and not there in the John verse? did Joseph have spices or not? Isn't it supposed to be two accounts of the same event?

So was she there or not?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 07:46 am
fishin wrote:
real life wrote:
fishin,

You repeated the claim over and over that I 'fabricated' a verse saying the women went to buy spices.

But when Pauligirl posted the same verse, you didn't accuse her of lying.

How do you explain the existence of the verse you claim I 'fabricated'?

Why don't you simply admit that the verse reads exactly as I posted it?

Tell it like it is. You jumped the gun to accuse me of lying, and you were in error due to your hasty effort to find fault with me.

If you cannot admit this fact which is in black and white for all to see, your credibility is in serious disrepair.


... maybe if you had cited the relevant text in your earlier post I could have eliminated your confusion earlier.


Nonsense. A google of the verse or a check in any online Bible would have easily shown the verse.

You were in a big hurry to accuse someone of lying, and you embarrassed yourself in the process.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 09:25 pm
Can I interject something here and at the same time address Pauligirl's question?

The Gospels are not identical. They are four versions of the same story. It's Rashomon and The Rashomon Effect only Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did it two thousand years ago.

And, I hasten to add, it's only important to literalists like Real Life that they reach some kind of exact sameness. Their belief in scripture relies on it's unerringness. (That's why Real Life has been trying so hard to match up a)the prophecy of the Messiah's three days in the earth, b) Christ's words relating Jonah's adventure and comparing his forthcoming one together and c) the events as they were related by the various writers. Unless there is perfect synchronicity amongst all of a,b and c, the prophecy of the Christ remains unfulfilled or some such nonsense. That kind of focus on the miniscule misses the point on Christ on Earth entirely.

Lookit, ----and these are the words of someone who no longer holds any belief in a Supreme All-Knowing God, -----

Christ's message to mankind was this: Relax. My Father, God, loves you and forgives you for everything you have done wrong. Please love each other in the same way, forgive those who trespass against you in the same way. God is Love, be as much like God as you humanly can be.

That's all. All the rest --the pomp, the circumstance --whether it's glittering vestments at High Mass or well-coifed hairdos on the red-faced Bible pounders on TV, the pious finger-pointing scolds or the sweetly holified prudes on the local library board, the huge, over blown edifices of grandeur and glass or the screaming throngs gyrating at a Miracles Are Real extravaganza-- all of that has nothing at all to do with what Jesus simply said:

Love one another.

Joe(I think he would look at Jerry Falwell or the Pope and not know whether to weep, or laugh out loud.)Nation
0 Replies
 
 

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