I'm not a Christian but I play one on TV.

Swimpy wrote:

I don't think you can call the Catholic Church a sect, dear.

Sure I can. I just did. Cool

Perhaps you mean I shouldn't. Why not?

0 Replies

real life wrote:

Only one sect (Roman Catholic) hold that Mary was bodily taken into heaven, and even this view was late in appearing in the traditions of the Catholics.

What do you see as "late"??? Question

0 Replies

real life wrote:

Swimpy wrote:
I don't think you can call the Catholic Church a sect, dear.

Sure I can. I just did.

Perhaps you mean I shouldn't. Why not?

A sect is a smaller group broken from a larger group. The Catholic Church was the larger group. All other christian groups are sects.

0 Replies

2PacksAday wrote:

It's easiest to think of the days as Easter weekend.

Thursday - Last Supper
Good Friday - Crucifixion
Saturday - The Sabbath - Jesus was at rest
Easter Sunday - Resurrection

It always bothered me that the day of crucifixion became known as Good Friday. Seemed so self-centered. Good for us maybe, but I doubt Jesus saw it as such.

0 Replies

squinney wrote:

2PacksAday wrote:
It's easiest to think of the days as Easter weekend.

Thursday - Last Supper
Good Friday - Crucifixion
Saturday - The Sabbath - Jesus was at rest
Easter Sunday - Resurrection

It always bothered me that the day of crucifixion became known as Good Friday. Seemed so self-centered. Good for us maybe, but I doubt Jesus saw it as such.

I'm sure Jesus did see it that way. Son of God or crazed madman his mission, according to the story was to be crucified for the sins of mankind. Mission accomplished.

The third possibility is that he was not a supernatural figure but a Ghandi or MLK kind of figure who just pushed the envelope a little too far and lost his life for it.

The fourth, and there has been talk of this lately is that somehow he didn't die, and then married and had a kid and decided discretion was the greater part of valor and finished the rest of his life quietly.

If he's not the Son of god he's the biggest rock star in the history of mankind.

I admire the guy no matter what. I'm sure if He's actually the Son of God and I come before Him one day I'll go past admiring Him and into the shitting my pants with fear stage.

0 Replies

The Prods are just jealous of the Catholics, because Protestant sects were created by sexually repressed, anal-retentive sour pusses who thought their target audience was stupid, and couldn't handle a complex theology. Now they're stuck with embarrassing lunatic fringes who do things like snake-handling or glossolalia . . . they lack the class, and the audience appeal, and they resent it . . .

0 Replies

Damn big Dawg.... say what you mean Laughing

0 Replies

Bear Said

I'm sure Jesus did see it that way. Son of God or crazed madman his mission, according to the story was to be crucified for the sins of mankind. Mission accomplished.

Yes, that is why it is known as Good Friday.

and ditto, on the rest of the post as well.

0 Replies

Swimpy wrote:

I don't think you can call the Catholic Church a sect, dear.

They were only one of many Christian groups that evolved after the death of Jesus. They won the battle and were the only christian game in town between the Council of Nicea and the Reformation (unless you count the schism of eastern and western orthodoxy in 1054), but they were one of many groups claiming to be spinning Truth. See also, Ebionites, Marcionites, the Gnostics, and the Arian controversy.

For anyone interested in early Christianity, Lost Christianities, The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew by BD Ehrman with the companion book Lost Scriptures is an interesting read. I also recommend his latest book Misquoting Jesus for a discussion of how the gospels were modified over time.

2PacksAday wrote:

There was John the Baptist, son of Elizabeth....and then there was John the Apostle one of the 12 disciples...confusing, yes, lots of Mary's and Johns around then....but the latter John is the one that is normally given credit for writing "John" and as being..."the one that Jesus loved".

On the origins of the Gospel of John... From The Complete Gospels Robert J Miller, editor -- "Where and when was this gospel written? It is addressed: to an audience of whom part are (or until recently were) bilingual, thinking in both Greek and 'Hebrew'; to a city having a substantial and effective Jewish presence, over against which those 'who were born from God' and 'have believed in his name' understand themselves as a beleaguered but divinely vindicated minority; and to a perspective not far removed from that of Galilee and Judea. A small city in Syria is perhaps the best informed guess. And the date would be within the decade or two following the centralized Jewish decision to expel believers in Jesus from the synagogue, that is, during the last fifteen years or so of the first century -- roughly contemporary with, but evidently independent of, the writing of Matthew and Luke-Acts. The author, like the three other 'evangelist,' is anonymous and only a century later was identified with John, the son of Zebedee (and he with "the disciple Jesus loved most").

0 Replies

You're quite right, JB, but my point still stands. The Roman Catholic Church is not a sect, given that the existing "protestant" religions are spin-offs of the Catholic Church. I don't want to derail the discussion because of semantics, though.

0 Replies

Swimpy wrote:

You're quite right, JB, but my point still stands. The Roman Catholic Church is not a sect, given that the existing "protestant" religions are spin-offs of the Catholic Church. I don't want to derail the discussion because of semantics, though.

This is, of course a matter of perspective.

Protestants will tell you that they didn't "spin off'"... but that they returned to the original Christianity that Catholics corrupted (in which cases the Catholics spun off from the original Protestantism).

There is an interesting spin off on unresolvable theological fights on who owns Saint Peter. Catholics claim him as the first Pope. Protestants claim him as an evangelist. Peter is important because according to the Bible Jesus gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom making him a key player in the church.

Of course there is an ongoing fight over what the "church' (meaning God's church) is and who is a part of it.

It all depends on whether Jesus was a Catholic or a Protestant. Sadly, the Bible has him ascending to heaven without saying.

0 Replies

Re: I'm not a Christian but I play one on TV.

boomerang wrote:

Would finding Jesus' bones change anything really? Couldn't he have physically risen from the dead and his spirit ascended to heaven? Does the Bible say his actual physical body ascended to heaven and that people witnessed this or just that they didn't find his body?

Well first of all, I can't of any good reason how one would identify 2000 year old bones as belonging to a specific person who lived back then. But hypothetically, if Cameron could establish that he found Jesus's bones, the impact would differ between Christians, depending on how literally they interpret the Bible. Fundamentalist Protestants like Jerry Falwell would recognize a substantial difference between reality and scripture -- and fight against reality with a vengance. Liberal Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox Christians would feel confirmed in their belief in Jesus, and interpret their way around any incompatible details.

The Bible says that after being crucified, Jesus physically came to life and wandered around in Israel for a few weeks, after which he physically ascended into heaven. See, for example, Luke 24:50-51: "And He led them out as far as to Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. And it came to pass, while He blessed them, He was parted from them and carried up into Heaven." Jesus's body in a tomb is inconsistent with the letter of the Bible.

Boomerang wrote:

Question 2:

The article says "All four Gospels say that Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Sabbath; all four say that the tomb was empty when the disciples woke on Sunday morning..." This is pointed out as a way to show that there was not time for the body to be moved.

But, isn't the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday? So wouldn't the eve of the Sabbath be Friday? In the Bible, what day would they have called "the Sabbath" and what would it's "eve" be?

Yep, Sabbath eve means Friday evening, not Saturday evening. That's why the day Jesus was crucified and buried is called "Good Friday". The Newsweek journalists who wrote this didn't know their Bible.

0 Replies

A description of the resurrection from the Gospel of Peter (discovered in Akhmim, Egypt in 1886) as written in "Lost Christianities"

"A crowd has come from Jerusalum and the surrounding area to see the tomb. During the night hours, they hear a great noise and see the heaven open up; two men descend in great splendor. The stone before the tomb rolls away of tis own accord, and the two men enter. The soldiers standing guard awaken the centurion, who comes out to see the incredible spectacle. From the tomb there emerge three men; the heads of two of them reach up to the sky. They are supporting the third, whose head reaches up beyond the skies. Behind them emerges a cross. A voice then speaks from heaven: 'Have you preached to those who are asleep?' The cross replies, 'Yes' (vv 41-42)."

As with most of the gospels attributed to the disciples, this one was probably not written by Peter, who was possibly executed during the persecution of Christians under the emperor Nero, around 64CE. The dating of the gospel of Peter is some time early in the second century and was in wide use among early Christians. It was deemed heretical by Serapion (bishop of Antioch, Syria) because some of the passages could be used to support docetic Christology (or the belief that Jesus was not really a flesh-and-blood human, but only appeared to be so.

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

It all depends on whether Jesus was a Catholic or a Protestant. Sadly, the Bible has him ascending to heaven without saying.

I find it highly likely that Jesus was a Jew.

0 Replies

What happened to the dead saints that came out of their graves and went into the city? Did they go back into their graves, just poof out of existance or are theystill walking around somewhere?

0 Replies

Swimpy wrote:

real life wrote:
Swimpy wrote:
I don't think you can call the Catholic Church a sect, dear.

Sure I can. I just did.

Perhaps you mean I shouldn't. Why not?

A sect is a smaller group broken from a larger group. The Catholic Church was the larger group. All other christian groups are sects.

The Roman church was a smaller group that grew very large (the largest for a long period of time).

But it was not the original group, it was a breakaway sect. And still is.

Swimpy wrote:

The Roman Catholic Church is not a sect, given that the existing "protestant" religions are spin-offs of the Catholic Church.

Some of them are.

Keep in mind, I did not say Protestant groups could not be defined as sects. They can, and I have no problem with that.

0 Replies

Well I guess ebrown was right when he said, "It's a matter of prospective." I suggest we get back to the subject at hand.

0 Replies

Well, it does relate to the topic at hand. Specifically it relates to Q2 of the OP.

The Catholic timeline of the Crucifixion-Resurrection period (Fri-Sun) is the one most commonly heard. But it is not the timeline found in the Bible, which has Jesus in the grave for three days and three nights.

0 Replies

Wait a minute. Let's hotel this:

He checked in on Friday night, spent all day Saturday and Saturday night and checked out sometime before the ladies arrived on Sunday morning.

I think the hotel would owe him something if his reservation was for three days and three nights.

Joe(More than the complimentary breakfast anyway)Nation

0 Replies

Nowhere does the Bible give the timeline you describe. Catholic tradition is where that is found.

0 Replies

I'm not a Christian but I play one on TV.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know