early paint pigments-not just for breakfast

Farmerman:

Either you are a compulsive liar or you have a very interesting life.

back w/more manana.

huh, portal star? farmerman is a very accomplished guy, but he can speak for himself, so I'll make myself be quiet.

art
Portal, Osso and I have learned more than most about Farmerman because of one of the Sunday Chats. I believe everything he says--well almost everything
Seriously, Farmerman, I appreciate your discussion of mixed media. It truly inspires me, given that I often like works BECAUSE of the effects they purchase by combining media. I've been toying also with the idea of using collage as a secondary part of acrylic paintings. By the way, I have a drawer full of pastels that have over the years lost color intensity because of their loss of powder--and they are not fixed.

Portal, Ill take that as an honest although somewhat heavy handed attempt at a compliment. Im 53 so ive been around and had a bunch of careers and life experiences. I never considered that anything I said was not believable. I guess I need to follow up with a "no ****"
What was it that struck you as unbelievable. Shearing sheep? .
Weve had a sheep and (now some cattle) operation for many years. its my wifes primary source of material for her own fibre art (wool being the main product0. I make a good living in geology so we dont have to count on farm income as our only source of cash, and free time to paint and do woodworking and a number of other things are some of the joys of my life.Fortunately, this summer is pretty much a sabbatical for me in that I only have to worry about 3 projects and i dont need to travel to godawful parts of the world,
my early life was quite destructive and art has always been a source of calm and an acceptable oiutlet for an overly developed basket of energy.

JL and I go back to another forum that has imploded over the last 2 years. So, if I often sound irreverent and flippant with him, I hope its understood, it is bourne out of a gradual unfolding of our thoughjts over this time. we havent gotten snotty overnight.
If you wanna hear from people whove led neat lives, I suggest you listen more closely and hear the others . I submit that you will find that theyhave done many cooler things(to me) than Ive ever done.

jL I misread your post about the drawer full of pastels unfixed. I read it that these are finished works? thats one of the problems with many pastels. Degas and Lautrecs look as fresh as id imagine after 100 years I dont know what tthey did(if anything) to preserve. their work I just find fixative to immediately dull down a perfectly brilliant pastel. Thats why when i did a few pastels, I always used that fine sandpaper coated paper, it keeps the 'dust" intact by providing some more tooth to the surface. Its not for everybody because it allows bright highlights.
Collage is cool, did you ever try collaging some of your own work? Ive cut and pasted up some of my single subjects that didnt work as a full piece, so I pasted them up as a bigger work.

I do color studies in Pantone colored pencils as that's what I learned as far as advertising roughs in commercial art classes. Never could get into pastels or oil pastels. Hot pressed paper is about the right texture for me and watercolor paper works best, especially if one wets the pencil for certaing blending effects. As far as toxicity since I often do wet the end in my mouth, I'm wondering about the pigmentation in colored pencils!

wiz-there is a way to determine the tox of your pencils. call the mfr or visit their website and contact them for Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for their colors and pencil formulas. They are obliged to provide this to you.

Actually vinegar is a good wetting agent for colored pencils -- one does have know how to control the softer lead or it does smear, however.

lots of interesting stuff going on here!

Yes if you use pastel on top of acrylic then it will have to be framed behind glass.

I usually fix pastels very lightly and the put the finishing marks on and don't fix again. I find them a nightmare to frame because of the pastel that will keep falling onto the mount (mat on your side of the pond?). Friends who use pastel a lot say give the work a few sharp taps to knock off the loose grains first - I thought i had but obviously not enough!

I do love to mix my media because of the extra expressive marks it makes available. I see no reason for purism about media - the important thing is the image you are creating - no silly rules about 'pure' watercolour or something.

In using collage it is really good to paint sheets of paper yourself in various subtle/pale/bright/dark shades and use these torn/cut whatever. Tissue paper applied with pva or acrylics can be interesting too.

Thanks for the info. I was kidding, and meant to sound impressed. Sorry if it was interpreted as rudeness. It's difficult to joke over the internet, there's no subtlety in text.

portal-I know, thats why I crashed what I originally said, we still friends. Ive noted from a few posts Ive been on recently that its very easy to be misunderstood.

vivien, tell me about using pva(is that the polyvinyl acetate filler?)

hi farmer - no it's glue - the sort of glue that is the base of acrylics? wood glue?

I use if as a resist in collagraphs - the ink will rub right off it if you want or leave a thin veil of colour - where the paper has been peeled back takes a deep hue.

I also use in with collage as it is really strong.

art
Wonderful info. THanks Farmer and Vivien. I asked my class today if anyone knew if the acrylic oxide colors are toxic (as they are in oil paints). Noone knew. I WAS told, however, that because of my age I would probably die before the toxins could take effect. That was comforting. I'm going to contact Golden and ask for the MSDS. One should know about such matters. I never use the cadmium colors, despite their beauty, because of the negative effect on the environment.

an MSDS is the place to start. then consult any of the EPA TSCA (toxic substances ) links for the specific industry codes , which, in this case would be paints and pigments. If you use water colors , you have to search under dyes as well.
Dont be too "afraid of our paints jL, the MSDS will have any special handling requirements. Like, lets not make believe we are Van Gogh and start holding our bristles in our mouths. that, seems like it needs no special handling notice, but you never know nowadays.
even bagged firewood has a DANGER FLAMMABLE notice many times.
the original post was about the old formulations for pigments that artists used from the midieval times until relatively recently. AND, it seems that the more bright the color, the more toxic the paint. It appears that (placing paris Green aside) vermillion was the most toxic because it was a pure oxyhydroxide of lead , and quite environmentally available. On top of that, it had a sweet taste (so Ive been told) therefore, like the lead painted sills in old buildings, kids found it tasty.

vivien, did I understand that pva is polyviinyl acetate? Ive never done any research on the toxicity of fluids, diluents, grounds, or solvents. HMMM what a doofus. Well ill get on it. I was wondering whether there were any good reference texts on toxic materials in the arts/

My wife has taught a series of classes regarding the chemical contents of mordants and fibre dyes. There seems to be a sleeping snake. Many universities have quietly just shut down their fibre arts programs , and those thatve kept them, have beefed up their studios and dye labs with major ventilation changes.

art


thanks again

There is a great handbook on toxicity in the arts, but Iv'e forgotten what it's called. I'll go look for it and modify this to add it.


supposedly you can call a number here:
http://www.caseweb.com/acts/index.html

A book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-subject=Artists%27%20materials%3B%20Toxicology%3B%20Handbooks%2C%20manuals%2C%20etc./202-8673841-5087009

another book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1558213066/qid=1057773065/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-8673841-5087009

I'm a bit trusting and careless with toxicity I'm afraid! I am ashamed to admit that i rarely read the labels

My parent's wouldn't let me paint anywhere in the house, so I used to paint in the closet with the door closed . Just enough room for three paces, a naked light bulb, and my canvas & supplies. I lost a lot of brain cells that way...
I'm really messy, so I'd also get any exposed body parts covered in paint.

Now I wear a filter mask when I paint, and I always wear latex/vinyl gloves (did you know you can absorb those toxic chemicals through your skin?). I wear a big bakery smock as a painting smock, and paint in a well lit, well ventilated area. I'm trying to preserve my brain cells as much as possible from now on!

I've been around so many toxic chemicals that I wouldn't know which to blame for what. But, Portal, if you give us the link, I'll add it to the Helpful Links Topic up in the featured list. And if I don't, then nag me.