US rejects ban on cluster bombs AFP

Baldimo posted

Quote:

How many Iraqis were killed today? 10
How many US soldiers? 0

but;

Quote:

WASHINGTON, Feb. 27, 2007 - A roadside bomb killed three Multinational Division Baghdad soldiers today, and a Marine assigned to Multinational Force West was killed yesterday, military officials reported.

The soldiers died during a clearing mission south of Baghdad, and the Marine was killed while conducting combat operations in Anbar province.

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Baldimo likes to look at some "good" news by isolatiion. The realities don't phase him at all.

Military Fatalities: By Month
Period.... US.... UK.... Other*.... Total Avg Days
2-2007. . 78... 3 1...... 82.............. 2.93... 28
1-2007... 83... 3 0...... 86.............. 2.77... 31
12-2006. 112.. 1 2..... 115............. 3.71... 31
11-2006.. 69... 6 2...... 77............. 2.57... 30
10-2006 . 106.. 2 2..... 110............. 3.55... 31
9-2006.... 72... 3 2...... 77............. 2.57... 30

On average, the US casualty rate is 2+ for every day of this war - current rates shows closer to 3. That Baldimo can show US = O shows how he's able to overlook the truth.

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Baldimo wrote:

Who is most often killed in these stories? Iraqis are the victims and have been the major victims for the last year or so. US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

The numbers don't seem to reflect your statement. While the number of Iraqis killed has significantly increased during the last 12 months, the number of US soldiers killed has not significantly gone down.

Code:

 Period        US      UK    Other*   Total       Avg      Days



 2-2007        78       3       1       82       2.93       28

 1-2007        83       3       0       86       2.77       31

12-2006       112       1       2      115       3.71       31

11-2006        69       6       2       77       2.57       30

10-2006       106       2       2      110       3.55       31

 9-2006        72       3       2       77       2.57       30



 8-2006        65       1       0       66       2.13       31

 7-2006        43       1       2       46       1.48       31

 6-2006        61       0       2       63       2.1        30

 5-2006        69       9       1       79       2.55       31

 4-2006        76       1       5       82       2.73       30

 3-2006        31       0       2       33       1.06       31



 2-2006        55       3       0       58       2.07       28

 1-2006        62       2       0       64       2.06       31

source: http://icasualties.org/oif/

Compared to the same period last year, the number of US soldiers killed has gone up. In February 2007, there has been almost one more dead US soldier every day than in February last year.

Looking at the overall trend during the last 12 months, the average number of casualties per month has been 2.52. During this period, the average number of casualties during the first six months has been 2.01. The average number of casualties during the second half has been 3.02 - again, more than one more dead US soldier every day than during the previous 6 months.

I think your statement that the number of US soldiers who are being killed is dropping from month to month seems to be overly optimistic.

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Not only "overly optimistic" but lacks any sense of reality. How do they do that? I want to learn how they're able to see something we can't.

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Personally, I think that people - whether in favour of the war or not - are doing a disservice to the US soldiers serving in Iraq by denying the fact that the number of soldiers killed has not been decreasing, but in fact has gone up.

There is no awareness in the US population that America is at war. People are being told to go on about their lives as if nothing had ever happened - that this was the best thing to do in the face of the terrorist threat. And to go shopping.

Yet, at the same time, American soldiers are being sent off to a foreign country, sometimes insufficiently armed or prepared, to fight a War On Terror, and when they die, even their ultimate sacrifice of giving their life for their country, even their deaths are being denied.

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Baldimo wrote:

If you did your time in the British Army then you know about the SAS? Do they win hearts and minds or do they get into positions where close air support is useful to keep them from getting killed?

Their fighting to free their country from US occupation and aggression? If thats so then how come they are killing more of their own countrymen then they are US soldiers? Everyday we hear about another bomb going off over in Iraq. Who is most often killed in these stories? Iraqis are the victims and have been the major victims for the last year or so. US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

How many Iraqis were killed today? 10
How many US soldiers? 0

I am well aware of both the British and Australian SAS Regiments, primarily they are reconnaissance units, their official motto is, "Who Dares Wins" but unofficially the boys say, "Who Cares Who Wins", they don't take themselves seriously and they just get in and do the job, they are up there with the best in the world, more than likely they are the best?

You've probably have never heard of the Malayan Emergency, it occurred shortly after the end of the Second World War, in 1948, when Malaya was still a British Colony, the Malay Communist Party decided that they would govern an independent Malaya but the British and Malays in general decided that would never happen, and so a war started only it wasn't called a war, it was an Emergency.

The British and her commonwealth forces set out to defeat the communists, many battles were fought and many died, however the multi-skilled troopers of the SAS set out to win hearts and minds of the people, and they did this in a spectacular fashion and not with Cluster Bombs, Napalm or DU Munitions, they did it by winning over the ordinary Malayan people with help and understanding. They patrolled the jungle and when they came to a village they would supply free medical care for all villages, they setup generators to supply electricity to the Kampong (Village) and dug fresh water wells where possible The Emergency went from 1948 to 1960, in the end the Malays decided it would be a better life under those who cared than under communists who just burned down Kampongs and tried to subjugate the villages; the Americans could take a lesson from that.

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anton wrote:

Baldimo wrote:

If you did your time in the British Army then you know about the SAS? Do they win hearts and minds or do they get into positions where close air support is useful to keep them from getting killed?

Their fighting to free their country from US occupation and aggression? If thats so then how come they are killing more of their own countrymen then they are US soldiers? Everyday we hear about another bomb going off over in Iraq. Who is most often killed in these stories? Iraqis are the victims and have been the major victims for the last year or so. US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

How many Iraqis were killed today? 10
How many US soldiers? 0

I am well aware of both the British and Australian SAS Regiments, primarily they are reconnaissance units, their official motto is, "Who Dares Wins" but unofficially the boys say, "Who Cares Who Wins", they don't take themselves seriously and they just get in and do the job, they are up there with the best in the world, more than likely they are the best?

You've probably have never heard of the Malayan Emergency, it occurred shortly after the end of the Second World War, in 1948, when Malaya was still a British Colony, the Malay Communist Party decided that they would govern an independent Malaya but the British and Malays in general decided that would never happen, and so a war started only it wasn't called a war, it was an Emergency.

The British and her commonwealth forces set out to defeat the communists, many battles were fought and many died, however the multi-skilled troopers of the SAS set out to win hearts and minds of the people, and they did this in a spectacular fashion and not with Cluster Bombs, Napalm or DU Munitions, they did it by winning over the ordinary Malayan people with help and understanding. They patrolled the jungle and when they came to a village they would supply free medical care for all villages, they setup generators to supply electricity to the Kampong (Village) and dug fresh water wells where possible The Emergency went from 1948 to 1960, in the end the Malays decided it would be a better life under those who cared than under communists who just burned down Kampongs and tried to subjugate the villages; the Americans could take a lesson from that.

We have been doing to win the hearts and minds gig, but that still doesn't help troops when they are out numbered and need that close air support. What do you recommend they use if not cluster bombs? No answer to that one yet.

I'm not suprised you don't know about the hearts and minds issue, the liberal media in the US doesn't exactly report on everything fairly.

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Baldimo wrote:

US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

Baldimo, what do you think about the increasing number of US soldiers that are getting killed in Iraq? Do you have an opinion on that?

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A few random Iraqis, probably regular citizens going about their business were killed today. That IS good news , uplifting even. Larry, let me buy you a beer.

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old europe wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

Baldimo, what do you think about the increasing number of US soldiers that are getting killed in Iraq? Do you have an opinion on that?

Going by the #'s I was wrong in my statement. Going by what the news reports have said, it seems that less are getting killed every month and that is what I based my statement off of. I was wrong and I'm willing to admit it.

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

A few random Iraqis, probably regular citizens going about their business were killed today. That IS good news , uplifting even. Larry, let me buy you a beer.

Did I ever say that was a good thing for Iraqis to be killed? You need to stop being an ass. I'm suprised you haven't asked me about going out and killing more kids. You did call me a baby killer didn't you?

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I don't think I did and if I did it was probably tongue in cheek but there's no doubt in my mind that if you were responsible for the deaths of middle eastern or afghan children as a result of your participation in a war related activity you would consider them merely peripheal casualties.
That's certainly how you present yourself whether it's accurate or not.

So you stop being an ass and a a poser why dont you? Razz

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Seriously Larry, I'm sure you and you compadres here on A2K are fine people with good intentions.... the fact that you wrap yourself in a cloak of superiority because of your beliefs is really too much to take without poking back that's all.

If you would just have your beliefs and stick to them without being all Church Lady about it you'd probably find people like me willing to be more reasonable with you..... not like you give a damn about people like me.....

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Baldimo wrote:

old europe wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

Baldimo, what do you think about the increasing number of US soldiers that are getting killed in Iraq? Do you have an opinion on that?

Going by the #'s I was wrong in my statement. Going by what the news reports have said, it seems that less are getting killed every month and that is what I based my statement off of. I was wrong and I'm willing to admit it.

Acknowledged. But don't you think it's actually a big problem in itself that, while more and more US soldiers are doing every month, the news reports would suggest that the opposite is the case? Wouldn't you agree that apparently, people (media, administration, population in general) have stopped caring about whether US soldiers are dying in Iraq or not?

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old europe wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
old europe wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
US soldiers are getting killed but the # is always dropping from month to month. While there are still some months that are worse then others, the over all # has declined.

Baldimo, what do you think about the increasing number of US soldiers that are getting killed in Iraq? Do you have an opinion on that?

Going by the #'s I was wrong in my statement. Going by what the news reports have said, it seems that less are getting killed every month and that is what I based my statement off of. I was wrong and I'm willing to admit it.

Acknowledged. But don't you think it's actually a big problem in itself that, while more and more US soldiers are doing every month, the news reports would suggest that the opposite is the case? Wouldn't you agree that apparently, people (media, administration, population in general) have stopped caring about whether US soldiers are dying in Iraq or not?

I don't think it is a lack of caring. I think it comes down to not really being news any more. For the last several years big news stories were about troops being killed in action. It became common which isn't a good thing but when it comes to news you don't report on the common because its common.

What suprises me about the news is that we don't have more news on the good things soldiers are doing over there. That is what I would like to hear more of, the doom and gloom from the media gets old.

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Baldimo, You are wrong about not being aware of the "good news" in Iraq. The reality of media coverage is based on the ratio of bad news vs good news and events; it's mostly bad news. We know of the soldiers giving candy to the Iraqi children, and how the evac hospitals care for the Iraqi wounded. Even about one child being sent back to the US to have surgery to reconstruct his little body.

The problem with these goody stories is the reality that more Iraqis are killed and maimed by our "collateral" damage than we can ever save or leave good impression on most Iraqis. That's the reason why most Iraqis now approve of killing American soldiers. Those are the realities up to now, because this administration screwed up everything from start to finish - or now.

Bush's stubborness has killed more people than you'll ever admit.

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Quote:

What suprises me about the news is that we don't have more news on the good things soldiers are doing over there. That is what I would like to hear more of, the doom and gloom from the media gets old.

That's because there really isn't that much of it to report.

There's small stuff - rebuilding schools, etc. That's all great. But it doesn't make the lives of the people, who can't walk down the streets without fear of imminent death from a variety of different sources, an iota better.

Our soldiers do great on an individual level; I'm sure they bust their ass to help every Iraqi that they can. But on a collective level, we're hardly making a dent in the situation. Not enough civvies' helping the soldiers out, State dept. can't get people to go to Iraq at all, and soldiers just aren't reconstruction, political, and economic experts.

The US soldier's huge responsibilities in this war are the unsung story; the difficulty of telling friend from foe, rebuilding, understanding local politics and ancient rivalries and hate, learning languages, policemen, doctor duties... they do it all! And they do a good job, but they aren't experts and we shouldn't be asking htem to do so much.

Cycloptichorn

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Baldimo wrote:

I don't think it is a lack of caring. I think it comes down to not really being news any more. For the last several years big news stories were about troops being killed in action. It became common which isn't a good thing but when it comes to news you don't report on the common because its common.

Probably. I guess the same is true for the number of Iraqis that are being killed every day. I still find it hard to grasp that so many people are so completely and utterly indifferent towards the fact that America is actually at war, and that almost twice as many US soldiers are dying now every day as during the first months after the invasion.

Baldimo wrote:

What suprises me about the news is that we don't have more news on the good things soldiers are doing over there. That is what I would like to hear more of, the doom and gloom from the media gets old.

Well, at least you answer the question why the numbers of soldiers killed aren't widely reported. There are probably lots of people who think that the doom and gloom from the media gets old.

I disagree with that. I think the deaths of US soldiers should be widely reported. I think the deaths of Iraqi civilians should be widely reported. I think that the achievement of US soldiers should be widely reported as well.

In summary, there should be enough reports about the war in the media to make people realize what is actually going on so they can form their own, informed opinion.

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"Informed Opinion" cannot be realized because this administration restricts information to the public at large.

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Baldimo wrote:

I don't think it is a lack of caring. I think it comes down to not really being news any more. For the last several years big news stories were about troops being killed in action. It became common which isn't a good thing but when it comes to news you don't report on the common because its common.

What suprises me about the news is that we don't have more news on the good things soldiers are doing over there. That is what I would like to hear more of, the doom and gloom from the media gets old.

There are more caring people than none caring, however from what I see and hear those who care are anti the US Occupation of Iraq and its people; regarding the US soldiers my friends and I see them as the perpetrators of the US aggression in support of the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Bush and his neocons should bring home all the young men and women who are placing their lives on the line to support a lost cause, inevitably the US will be forced to withdraw by those true American patriots who are really concerned about the reputation of their once respected country.

It will be many years before the world trusts the US again, in fact I would go as to say what we are seeing now is the demise of the US as an influence in the developed world; I discuss the situation in the Middle East, with many people, on a daily bases, and I have yet to meet one person who supports the actions of the US, in fact most Australians see the Americans as the terrorists of the world If I were an American citizen I would be concerned about that, I would be very concerned

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Anton, I hear pretty regularly from a friend in Australia, and hes' about the most outspoken Aussie I know. He also criticizes his own PM as much as president Bush.

I don't talk politics with my Muslim friends, but I'm not ashamed to say that president Bush is a incompetent tyrant who doesn't understand international diplomacy.

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US rejects ban on cluster bombs AFP

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