Ogling

n the same count, the indignation is sometimes a little too selective. Those men ogling are awful- but who's complaining when its that handsome hunk looking at you? There's an element of hypocrisy in that. From there, you come to the deliberate/undeliberate again. How many times do we not get dirty looks because apparently, weve been ogling - when in fact we hadnt even looked? Or were merely staring blankly ahead? And not to belabour the point, but its often the women with bare-midriff t-shirts emblazoned "babe" who are the first to give you a dirty look when you're "ogling" them. I mean, come on. If I'm not your type and you dont want me to be looking, fine - but then dont try turning it into some 'womens rights' issue, either. Probably, if you're an ugly or old guy, you only need to throw a general glance in anyone's direction to get an aggro response!

Finally, on the deliberate/undeliberate count, you come back to the culture thing, too. Thomas I think mentioned how German women have no problem in Paris, while American women complain. Well, one of the first things Anastasia and I encountered after she came to live here was the looking thing. Nothing to do with "Latin temperament", thus - or even with men/women, at all. She was simply, and gradually ever more, freaked out by how people will be watching you here, everywhere you go.

On the train, in the bus - seats are opposite each other, and the person across from you will be looking at you - will have looked at your coat, your shoes, your face. Without smiling! She experienced that as being extre-me-ly rude - intrusive, hateful. I'm all: where else should one look, then? To the floor? In my turn, when I was in NY one time, I was on the subway, and I was just blankly looking outside and across the carriage, when this black guy just shot out at me: what the **** are you LOOKING at!? He had me scared. I hadnt looked at ****! What culture of paranoia is it where even a casual look your way is seen as a threatening challenge?

We talked a lot about this, and she does insist that theres a wholly different concept of personal space here. People stand closer, live closer, look closer. Privacy is much more important in America: you either dont get into eye contact or you make sure to turn it into something harmless by smiling profusely. She says its really a conceptual thing, and notes also, for example, how people hardly apologize here when they accidentally bump into somebody else, like they do in America. So that could well play a role, too.

I hear ya, Nimh. You reminded me of a big heated discussion I had with a bunch of people during an "Equal Opportunity" course ('new Army' stuff).

The point was made that the only difference between an accusation of sexual harrassment and a guy hitting on a gal might be the woman's degree of attraction to the guy doing the talking.

Yeh, interesting, that! 'Pparently, you really struck a chord with this topic. I mean, you wrote somewhere this is not the most acute topic in terms of womens' harassment - and in comparison with the harassment women do experience from ogling, "our" complaints about being miscontrued/whatever again pale in significance ... But I read the full length of Cravens posts, and then I found myself writing much more than I had thought I would, and yeh, most of the other posters here are male, too ... so you cant help thinking that this particular "accusation" about the wrong men supposedly do has really struck a raw nerve over time, I guess, more than anyone would normally like to admit perhaps! (?)

I think Hollywood should take over, and script out our lives for us, so we would all be happy forever after. Problem is, there are no good writers left in Hollywood these days...

Hmmm... if I didn't know cav so well, I'd think he was being sarcastic.

hey snood! hadnt seen you yet, was reading the discussion from the start ...

So many female friends i've had, had been victimised by sexual violence at some time or other ... not questionable 'harassment' cases, no - assault or worse. I was getting so shocked that at one point i counted, and out of the ten or fifteen girls i'd known best these past years, of half i knew they had stuff happen to them. And its not the first thing you talk about, so there must be more still ... thats really scary.

All the more pity that these questionable harassment cases take all the publicity, and thus kinda threaten to discredit/trivialise the actual danger of sex crimes. On the other hand, it is good to remember this kind of figures when thinking about questions like sozobe's. If the risk of being hurt is really that great, you cant blame women for being defensive about anything that may seem threatening ... thats that side of the story.

I grant you that, for sure.

Eyup!

Been away for several hours, came back, read from where I left off, brow furrowed, oh dear, I have to do some more explaining, kept reading, your last post is pretty much exactly it, nimh.

Will answer Craven's questions, which I think are interesting, later.

I think you are probably 110% right on that one.

PS: snood, would your avatar mind covering up those knockers? It's distracting....

First, nimh, can you direct Anastasia thisaway? I'd love to get her viewpoint.

Undoubtedly, culture has a lot to do with it.



I disagree. I mean, "might be", sure. But most of the time actual sexual harassment has to do with duration and/ or severity. One instance of "Hey baby, what's happening?" while leaning in close on an elevator is not sexual harrassment. "Hey baby, what's happening?", while leaning in close on an elevator, every morning, despite requests not to, after discussion with supervisors, etc., can be sexual harrassment.

And a stranger going up to a woman in an elevator and fondling her breasts is not considered a valid method of hitting on a woman by anyone, I hope.

Note, I'm not calling ogling sexual harrassment.



Yeah, I agree, Craven.

To begin with, I think it's not so much that they discover their sexuality as that others discover it. I remember vividly the transition, when I started getting attention from grown-ups. It was unsettling, but I do remember the sense of power... I'm just walking over to the gas station to get something to drink, la-de-da, and all of these guys are gawking. At that time, I thought it was cool. Little ol' me!

We talked before about the oddity factor, or novelty factor and that is I think the central component in attitudes changing. When one has control over the situation, and feels power, and it's new, it's fun. When one realizes that it can't be shut off... that it happens whether you are in a good mood or a lousy mood, tired or energetic, happy or sad, outgoing or private, it gets OLD fast.

Think of a struggling actor who just had his first big role in a movie. He's recognized on the street! Cool! Autographs! Wow! Autograph-seekers while he's trying to read the paper in the cafe. Fine. People gawking at him as he rides the subway home, hung over. Enough already!

To expand on that -- say the actor acquires a stalker. Nothing too terrible happens, but it afects how he views his fans -- is this one a potential stalker, too? What about this one? Why are you staring at me? What are you thinking?

So I while I think an uncomfortable experience (i.e. stalker) accelerates the process, it's not necessary for the process to happen. Just plain having the novelty wearing off and dealing with it day in, day out, whether you want to or not, will do it.

OK, so this actor analogy is instructive, actually. It's making me re-think some things. Hmmm.

It's an interesting analogy, sozobe, not necessarily a good one for your case. I think it's got some dandy potholes in it. Cuz the actor can definitely be said to have put him/herself out there - in the public eye.





(i've been here, reading, all along)

No - what it "pretty much exactly" is, is one side of the experience. And I think many of us have just indicated the flip-side of the experience - which I think you actually hear a whole lot less often, cause who wants to come across like a boor? Anyway, you cant pick and choose which of the stuff here is valid - it all is.

Eh?

Lots of very valid stuff here, indeed. Just thought that was an especially good point, well made, as I've said that Craven, Thomas, and others have made good points...

And ehBeth, too, as I see what you mean.

For me, when I was single, the 'withering glare' was quite enough to send me off to greener pastures when making an attempt to look at a strange woman. For some, it isn't. Every encounter is a judgement call...I don't really know how we can do anything more than trust ourselves, for better or worse.

I ogle. All the time. If the scenery is worth ogling.

I don't think I am breaking my vow-of-vacation-from-gender-discussions if I respond to Craven's question about the young woman just in bloom strutting her stuff?

I think this DOES happen, and is absolutely normal - young fellas often do it too, bless 'em. It is a fascinating thing to go to particular coffee shops around my city, which are much frequented by Italian-Australians - and people watch on Sunday afternoons.

This is when families with children (some of whom are clearly becoming grown up!) come out for coffee and promenade. Also, this is the time when groups of young Italian men come out - as well as mixed groups, for those young women allowed out without parents, but probably with a brother or male cousin in attendance.

It is interesting to see the pubescent girls preen and strut - and the slightly older boys, who are allowed out alone, respond to the preening by also preening! The whole thing is contained by awareness of watchful adult eyes, so there is some subtlety - but, I think, for young women, (and probably for the guys?) much of this behaviour is only semi-conscious - a sort of fluttering and trial of the wings - which is by its nature clumsy and noisy and attention-grabbing - but becomes more subtle and smooth with experience. (Eg - the guys do not see the need to do SUCH raucous wheelies!) I know I did my fair share of preening and strutting in little girl packs, near slightly older boy packs.

It is a dangerous time, in some ways, for the girls, as they often look older, and their behaviour is often clumsy and rather extreme - I know it is a terrifying time for parents! - the young woman needs confirmation that she is attractive, but she needs it in safety - or, she needs to learn that it is behaviour that is better calmed down, from experiences that are aversive, but not too much so.

I remember an amazing day, many years ago, when a friend's "little" sister visited. There was a large group of us - probably about ten or so men, and myself and the female friend whose sister this was. We were all in our early twenties, Debbie, the sister was 14.

Overnight, it seemed, Debbie had turned from a frumpy, stroppy little girl into a pocket Venus (still stroppy!). There she was - behaving pretty much, bless her, like a queen pussy-cat in heat! She was stretching and moving herself in ways that placed her large, lovely, new breasts and wonderful new curves into the most prominent relief possible! There was head-tossing, and attitude, and batted eyelashes and little moues of disdain! The full Monty.

Well, there were the poor guys - (my woman friend and I were bursting with restrained humour, and sympathy for them - as well as watchfulness lest one of them respond inappropriately - for they were being sorely tried - she was in school uniform, for Chrissakes - a sore temptation, I have noticed during a long and chequered career!) - caught between a rock and a hard place. They were clearly responding physically, with no control over this (I don't mean the obvious - I mean more subtle signs of arousal) - and they obviously felt it rude not to respond with appreciation of and to her - but where were the boundaries? What was kind and positive reaction to a fledgeling, vulnerable young woman, seeking affirmation of her new status - what was sleazy and inappropriate? And what was appropriate for Debbie to have fed back to her - for her own growth and even safety - because, believe me, she put on a major show!

Well, bless them, they behaved impeccably - we actually applauded them and hugged them (and laughed fit to bust) when Debbie left, and they collapsed in relief! The ensuing conversation went on for hours, and covered a lot of the ground that has been covered here - although, because they were all close friends, and some were lovers, it was a lot more open and comfortable - though not without conflict.

The thing is, all the men recognized that the display was a natural learning thing - that they should react with some affirmation, but not too much.

Where it can all go badly astray, I think, is where there have been inappropriate family boundaries, or actual sexual abuse - which is when some young women's (and men's) behaviour becomes highly sexualised and sometimes (often?) it can lead to sexual activity which reifies the young person's very negative view of themselves and human relationships - (unless it leads to suppression and hiding of sexuality.)

However, for un-traumatized kids, all this strutting and such, in sexual development, I see as a normal, healthy developmental stage which, in an ideal world, they could do as safely and unself-consciously as Debbie was able to do with our lovely men friends.

Very well said, Miss Deb!

Wimmin!

Yay!



Miscellaneous thoughts, gathered while out in a large crowd this evening:

- One thing that I haven't really gone into yet in this discussion, I don't think, is how women observe each other. I was wearing an all-in one tank (bra+ tank) that has a disconcerting habit of revealing too much decolletage when I'm not paying attention, and it was when I caught a woman's look thataway that I adjusted. While waiting in line, I saw a young woman wearing an arresting outfit -- white low-rise short-shorts, wide leather belt in a few colors including burgundy, burgundy wrap shirt. It worked, and looked interesting, and I was checking out how she made it work -- were the belt loops wide enough for the belt, or did she just put it right over? High heels or low?

- I have (thus far!!) been sort of the lone voice of the female perspective in this thread, and have therefore struck lots of similar notes, but I want to get in there that I have major distaste for the whole victim mentality. Oh, I just remembered a thought I had and never wrote down, that a theme from both perspectives could be "It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bushel". For women, the truly bad oglers, and/or stalkers, taint the more unremarkable, everyday observation from men. For men, the women who too readily cry foul, who seek every opportunity to make themselves out to be the victim even when they are not, make it harder to take the perspective of the less hyperbolic women seriously.

- While I agree with ehBeth's assessment of the dandy pothole of purposely putting oneself in the public eye, the actor example did make me think. If I saw Denzel Washington sitting across the subway from me, I'd look. I'd be as polite as possible, but it would be difficult not to look. I get that whole aspect just a little more. (I didn't NOT get it before, but that helped my perspective a bit.)

- At the same time, famous people often say they love New York because people tend to leave them alone there, which supports Craven's "don't ogle, so they will wear more miniskirts!" thesis.

I think women check each other out more so than men do. Almost every day my co-worker will say to me "did you see that babe?" as we are out on the corner smoking. She catches them all, I don't.

She's always trying to play cupid, heck, even on the highway. Last week she was telling me that there was a car full of women right next to us. I said, "so?" and she said, "look, you know, so you'll have an image to.." and she proceded with her usual masturbation joke of the day.

Thing is, that made me wonder, she was joking (we joke a lot) but do women think the ogling is that seedy? Mentally filing away the images for masturbation? I didn't think about it then because she was just trying to diss me but is that an element?

I have said it before and a few guys here raised it again, most of the uncomfortable factor is a matter of who the guy is. My sister used to tell me how "grossed out" she was if an "ugly" guy whistled at her but she sure didn't mind if she liked the guy. Is this an issue as well? That some women don't want undesireable men to even think dirty thoughts (when the guy is ugly, the thoughts are "dirty" if not they are "romantic":-)) about them? My sister has said as much a few times. I haven't thought of it much.

Anywho, I'm glad to get more positive confirmation about the young girl preening thing. I have had some young friends who I'd ignore and the strutting became comical. I wanted to sit them down and say, "Look, any woman can catch a man's eye. As soon as you figure out that it's not something special or unique you are gonna learn to be a bit more subtle. I mean, nobody drops a damn pencil 50 times."

Another question, when women check each other out have any of you felt uncomfortable? I ask because sometimes it's curiosity but other times I notice very judgemental elements. A one-over by one of my really beautiful friends used to make my other friends hate her. I remember one party she went to and most of my female friends hated her even before she spoke. After they'd size each other up they'd hate her for being "so conceited" and such.

I must qualify that by saying this was a dysfunctional group and the women were always divided on ever-shifting lines. It was hard for the guys (who never had a single rift) to keep up with which girls were talking to whic of theor counterparts.

Oh, every single one of the girls were shrinks BTW. Oddly enough all my male friends that year were engineers and all the females were shrinks.