America leave the world in peace!

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I would dearly love to see Bush and his Coalition of the willing brought before the International Criminal Court (ICC) at the Hague and charged with crimes against humanity, for the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq and Fraud, for lying and creating fear in the world by talking up terrorism; Bush and his cabal of war mongers Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Richard Perle should all be brought before the world court.

Terrorism has been around for hundreds of years, it has always been a possibility but it took Bush and his cohorts to cast it as a major threat to society. It is a very fine line between terrorism and patriotism but America has blurred that line for its own ends; terrorists attacked the WTC because of their hatred of the US Foreign policy that favoured the acceptance of Israeli subjugation of Palestine. The WTC was attacked and the US expected the world to dance to the beat of its drum Those days have gone, the time has come for the world to recognize the US for what it really is, a bully and user, now is the time to leave them to right the mayhem they create, they must understand that the rest of the world is only interested in the welfare of its people and not an aggressive drive to conquer the world by death and destruction.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/iraq.htm

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I would tend to agree. I would like to see my country go back to a policy of isolationism whereby we take care of our own and ignore the all the needs of foreign nations.

All US business interest should be re-patrioted back to the US. ALl foreign aid should end. All humitarian acts should end immediately.

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The US is and always has been in a tough situation. We either help and get called a bully or don't help and get called uncaring, selfish pigs who have more than we need but won't share.

The balance is what we struggle to find. How do we help without interferring?

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Oh and what part of the world we are in now has EVER been in peace? (in case you aren't sure, I'm speaking of the Middle East) The war and terror there was not caused by us nor will it end when we leave.

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Bella Dea wrote:

The US is and always has been in a tough situation. We either help and get called a bully or don't help and get called uncaring, selfish pigs who have more than we need but won't share.

The balance is what we struggle to find. How do we help without interferring?

Helping is not invading a sovereign nation and slaughtering, by some estimates, 600 thousand innocent men women and children, not counting more than 3,000 young American men and women service personnel.
Iraq was contained and was no threat to America, Britain or Australia, why did those countries led by the US invade a country that was once your ally; the US supplied Saddam Hussein with weapons and poison gas to use in his war against Iran.

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So, we should just let the murderers get away with slaughtering kids because it's contained within their country?

And while we may have made a boo boo (a huge, unforgivable boo boo) we took Saddam out, saving the lives of thousands upon thousands of innocents he would have murdered. I don't see the US blowing up schools and markets. I see the US trying to stop crazy wingnuts from doing it...at the expense of our lives. The men and women of the armed services weren't forced to join. Many joined after the war began and they did it because there is some purpose to trying to save the lives of people who are cornered and have no options other than live in fear.

I am not saying the US is blameless or that what we do is always right.

But we are damned if we don't and damned if we do.

If we didn't help, people like you would be screaming about the injustice of the US not helping.

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anton wrote:

Helping is not invading a sovereign nation and slaughtering, by some estimates, 600 thousand innocent men women and children, not counting more than 3,000 young American men and women service personnel.

Oh and please elaborate...what would helping be, in your opinion?

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Bella Dea wrote:

The US is and always has been in a tough situation. We either help and get called a bully or don't help and get called uncaring, selfish pigs who have more than we need but won't share.

The balance is what we struggle to find. How do we help without interferring?

I would submit that the US gets called a bully for invading a country that didn't pose a danger to America. Or for abducting citizens from other countries and transferring them to secret prisons. Or for detaining people without due process, and for torturing them.

I can't remember that the US has ever been widely called a bully for helping. For example, the image of the US in the wake of the tsunami catastrophe in Asia improved significantly after America was quick to bring help and relief to the affected areas.

And all that for less money than what has been spent in Iraq.

I think the balance to find is not about how to help without interfering, it's about how to help without violating basic human rights - the right to live amongst those.

I can't help but wonder why someone would find this tiny distinction so difficult to grasp.

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So again, as it relates to Iraq, how could we help? Stand by and watch thousands upon thousands of innocents be slaughtered by their own government?

Humor my stupid American mind here and explain how we could help in this situation.

By the way, for the record I don't support the war in Iraq as it is. I would support us helping the Iraqi people by any means necessary and while I don't know how we could do that, it seems that those in other countries seem to think they know the answer. So please, enlighten us.

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Bella Dea wrote:

So, we should just let the murderers get away with slaughtering kids because it's contained within their country?

And while we may have made a boo boo (a huge, unforgivable boo boo) we took Saddam out, saving the lives of thousands upon thousands of innocents he would have murdered. I don't see the US blowing up schools and markets. I see the US trying to stop crazy wingnuts from doing it...at the expense of our lives. The men and women of the armed services weren't forced to join. Many joined after the war began and they did it because there is some purpose to trying to save the lives of people who are cornered and have no options other than live in fear.

I am not saying the US is blameless or that what we do is always right.

But we are damned if we don't and damned if we do.

If we didn't help, people like you would be screaming about the injustice of the US not helping.

So you got rid of Saddam Hussein and destroyed Iraq, what have you put in place; every single death resulting from the US invasion can be placed fairly and squarely at the feet of the Bush regime, not only that Bush have destroyed the reputation of a once respected nation and believe me it will take a very long time for the world to trust the US again; if you don't believe that have look around the internet and read some of the news reports and articles, your current president has made the US the most hated country in the world

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Bella Dea wrote:

So, we should just let the murderers get away with slaughtering kids because it's contained within their country?

And while we may have made a boo boo (a huge, unforgivable boo boo) we took Saddam out, saving the lives of thousands upon thousands of innocents he would have murdered. I don't see the US blowing up schools and markets. I see the US trying to stop crazy wingnuts from doing it...at the expense of our lives. The men and women of the armed services weren't forced to join. Many joined after the war began and they did it because there is some purpose to trying to save the lives of people who are cornered and have no options other than live in fear.

I am not saying the US is blameless or that what we do is always right.

But we are damned if we don't and damned if we do.

If we didn't help, people like you would be screaming about the injustice of the US not helping.

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Our current president is the worlds biggest fool. And there are few who don't believe that.

But again, I submit to you, HOW could we help?

You'll all got accusations to throw but no solution.

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Bella Dea wrote:

So, we should just let the murderers get away with slaughtering kids because it's contained within their country?

And while we may have made a boo boo (a huge, unforgivable boo boo) we took Saddam out, saving the lives of thousands upon thousands of innocents he would have murdered. I don't see the US blowing up schools and markets. I see the US trying to stop crazy wingnuts from doing it...at the expense of our lives. The men and women of the armed services weren't forced to join. Many joined after the war began and they did it because there is some purpose to trying to save the lives of people who are cornered and have no options other than live in fear.

I am not saying the US is blameless or that what we do is always right.

But we are damned if we don't and damned if we do.

If we didn't help, people like you would be screaming about the injustice of the US not helping.

Yes that's exactly right. Although strong arm dictators and societies that abuse their citizens are abhorrent, they are not OUR coun try and we have people here who need help, services and protection. Notice we don't get involved anywhere unless by going there we can serve our own interests. We cannot stop the mistreatment of people in other countries who hold human life in different regard than we do by diplomacy or by gun.

I have empathy for these people but I am an American and that means America first.

Jesus himself said in his gospels that the poor would always be with us.
Someone else said Charity begins at home.

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I agree we need to help ourselves. We've got plenty of problems here at home. However, I just don't think it's right to just allow it.

Someone had a great sig line (occom bill maybe?) that went something like " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

And I believe it. Which is why I keep asking someone to come up with a solution. And no one can. All they can do is bitch and complain.

Truly, I would be very upset should my bother in law be deployed to Iraq. And I myself am not a strong enough person to enlist and go fight. But allowing those poor people to be treated that way makes us no better than how we allow people here in our country to suffer (and we do).

I never said the US was unselfish. But even selfish reasons can have positive outcomes.

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for us to refuse to trade with these people or help them in any way is doing something. But spending our own resources on countires other than our own at the expense of our own people is inexcusable and the very evil of which you speak.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

for us to refuse to trade with these people or help them in any way is doing something. But spending our own resources on countires other than our own at the expense of our own people is inexcusable and the very evil of which you speak.

How is that helping? Other than allowing them to be slaughtered?

There are plenty of good people over there who want nothing more than to just LIVE and they can't even do that in peace.

How is doing nothing, something?

Bear, you and I both agree that the shrub is a moron and in many eyes, a murderer. But I can't stand here and agree that we should just leave these people to die. I don't know the answer.

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I agree, BPB. There have been dozens and dozens of rulers who have been as bad as Saddam was and we did not much. We supplied arms to the revolutionaries, we cut trade, we lay down sanctions. I think we went way too far with Saddam. It was not the right time to act and it was in the wrong manner. We went from plan b to plan y (z being the nuclear optiion).

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littlek wrote:

I agree, BPB. There have been dozens and dozens of rulers who have been as bad as Saddam was and we did not much.

And I don't agree with the fact that we left those people to die and suffer. We should have helped. I don't think that we should allow the people here to suffer. We should help.

We aren't perfect. Far from it.

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leaving those people to die sucks. making useless and failed efforts that cause death and suffereing of our own citizens is MORE unacceptable.

Would you, if it were possible, give me your childs brain so that my child could think straight and not have seizures? It would mean the death of your child. No, you would not, because your first obligation is to your own, and no one including me would think the worse of you for notm making that offer or sacrifice.

we could flood these people with untold humanitarian aid all over the world on a daily basis for a fraction of the cost of military actions and covert operations cherry picked to enrich and empower a few.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

leaving those people to die sucks. making useless and failed efforts that cause death and suffereing of our own citizens is MORE unacceptable.

And, moreover, making the entire world less stable. Making the US more targeted.

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America leave the world in peace!

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