Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

JLNobody wrote:

Don't besmirch Frank's memory. Let him rest in peace.

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JLNobody wrote:

Don't besmirch Frank's memory. Let him rest in peace.

I miss the old Geezer. (Older than me, that is) He provided spice. If this will get him back, I could not be happier.

The best way to sharpen one's rhetoric is against an antagonist. If I had wanted to talk to folks who agree with me, I would be preaching to the choir.

As for slavery, I have many things to say. But one thing is certain: slavery was not part of God's purpose when humans were created. What needs to be explained is why it existed and for what purpose.

The bible actually has the answers. And what I find amazing is that many who call themselves christians were not up to Frank's challenge.

I may restart this discussion as a new thread. But this observation, for one, has been missing from dear old Frank's rant: The slavery tolerated by God did not permit sexual exploitation or physical mistreatment. It also provided the death penalty to one who trafficked in the kidnapping of humans. This, a far cry from the assertion of Methodist minister Alexander McCaine who proclaimed in 1842 that slavery was "ordained by God Himself."

Be back,

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neologist wrote:

I may restart this discussion as a new thread. But this observation, for one, has been missing from dear old Frank's rant: The slavery tolerated by God did not permit sexual exploitation or physical mistreatment. It also provided the death penalty to one who trafficked in the kidnapping of humans. This, a far cry from the assertion of Methodist minister Alexander McCaine who proclaimed in 1842 that slavery was "ordained by God Himself."

Be back,

Re physical mistreatment

Quote:

Exd 21:20
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Exd 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money.

So as long as he doesn't die it's ok to beat the crap out of him.

Quote:

Deu 15:17
Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust [it] through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

If he is coerced into giving up his freedom at seven years because his wife and children would remain in bondage then you can mark him as yours forever.

Re: sexual exploitation.

Quote:

Num 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Under directive of God thirty-two thousand Midianite virgin female children were divided up as war booty. Do you really want to defend that Neo?

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mesquite wrote:

. . . Do you really want to defend that Neo?

Depends on what you wish me to defend. The bible's position on slavery (or any human misery) may be understood only by considering the remainder of the bible. The bible makes it clear that humans were not designed to be owned by one another. In fact, the entire theme of the bible points toward an eventual restoration of God's Edenic purpose: that we have the hope of living indefinitely on earth, each one 'doing our own thing.'

According to the bible, that is.

So, if slavery was not part of God's plan, why did he allow it?

According to the bible.

Well, a careful reading of the bible will reveal that, since the time of Satan's challenge, the entire world has been given to his control that he may prove or fail to prove his allegations. (John 16:11 and others) The only exception is that God has continued to communicate with mankind through his word.

So, slavery exists and has existed as a consequence of Satan's rule. God simply put regulations on it for the government of the Jews (and perhaps in consideration of their hardheartedness. (Matt 19:8)) And there is no justification in those regulations for the enslavement of Africans in the Americas or for the traffic in human beings which continues to this day. Nor is there any longer a national group having any special covenant with God.

According to the bible.

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Quote:

God simply put regulations on it for the government of the Jews (and perhaps in consideration of their hardheartedness. (Matt 19:8)) And there is no justification in those regulations for the enslavement of Africans in the Americas or for the traffic in human beings which continues to this day. Nor is there any longer a national group having any special covenant with God.

According to the bible.

Yep.
i suggest you guys read the book of Philemon in the new testament. This is a letter written by Paul to Philemon, a christian roman slave owner. Philemon's slave Onesimus ran away and crossed paths with Paul, who led him to Christ. Paul writes to Philemon to accept Onesimus back not as a slave but as a beloved brother.

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mesquite wrote:

So as long as he doesn't die it's ok to beat the crap out of him.

Ah, i laughed my ass off at that one. That was classic.

Everybody clear the floor, the Christians need lots of room to dance.

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I would laugh also were it not for the fact that slavery in other countries of OT times was quite different. The real laugh here is that Frank's toadies have completely ignored the cause of human slavery.

I sure wish Frank were here now, so he could show his erudition with some choice scatology. I love it when he helps me make my point.

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To whom, precisely, do you refer when you mention "Frank's toadies?"

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Why Set. You know I mean present company excepted. lol

But there are some who use parts of the bible to 'prove' a point while ignoring those parts of the bible which controvert their argument.

If the bible lays the blame for mankind's ills on Satan, then it would be unfair to fault God for whatever rules he may have put into place for the government of that institution. We might have done things differently, of course, but God did not ask us for advice.

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But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.

Hi, CI. good to hear from you.

You do know that Satan is not the rebel's actual name, don't you? We capitalize the word satan (resister) to indicate the quintessential rebel, but his real name is never stated.

Satan became Satan when he decided to rebel.

We don't have to believe in free will to understand that the bible clearly supports the idea that Satan had a choice just as did Adam and Eve.

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Present company excluded eh? Just like the last time you got called on using the Frank's toadies term here?

If the satan argument is the best you can offer then I am at a loss as to why you resurrected this thread. After all the title is Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral?? Bible God certainly didn't hold back on laying down the law when it came to sassy kids or adultery or even gathering sticks for firewood on the sabbath. "Stone them until they are dead", he said.

You say that because of satan, Bible God knew that there would be slavery so he just regulated it? By that way of thinking he should have also known that there would be adultery. Then he could have just set the rules like no hanky panky except on Saturday nights.

Is that really the best you can come up with for a reason for Bible God to be so lax on such a vile issue as slavery and yet so harsh on an issue such as adultery?

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neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.
Hi, CI. good to hear from you.

You do know that Satan is not the rebel's actual name, don't you? We capitalize the word satan (resister) to indicate the quintessential rebel, but his real name is never stated.

Satan became Satan when he decided to rebel.

We don't have to believe in free will to understand that the bible clearly supports the idea that Satan had a choice just as did Adam and Eve.

So, what was Satan's original name?

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snood wrote:

neologist wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.
Hi, CI. good to hear from you.

You do know that Satan is not the rebel's actual name, don't you? We capitalize the word satan (resister) to indicate the quintessential rebel, but his real name is never stated.

Satan became Satan when he decided to rebel.

We don't have to believe in free will to understand that the bible clearly supports the idea that Satan had a choice just as did Adam and Eve.

So, what was Satan's original name?

Don't know. Never mentioned. I doubt we will ever know, since his name doesn't seem to deserve remembrance.

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mesquite wrote:

Present company excluded eh? Just like the last time you got called on using the Frank's toadies term here?

If the satan argument is the best you can offer then I am at a loss as to why you resurrected this thread. After all the title is Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral?? Bible God certainly didn't hold back on laying down the law when it came to sassy kids or adultery or even gathering sticks for firewood on the sabbath. "Stone them until they are dead", he said.

You say that because of satan, Bible God knew that there would be slavery so he just regulated it? By that way of thinking he should have also known that there would be adultery. Then he could have just set the rules like no hanky panky except on Saturday nights.

Is that really the best you can come up with for a reason for Bible God to be so lax on such a vile issue as slavery and yet so harsh on an issue such as adultery?

But, as you can tell from Set's response, it was obvious that present company wasn't included then, either. Frank is the one who asserted that God considered slavery to be moral. He never proved his point other than to assert it loudly.

When God regulated slavery it was not because he knew there would be slavery. Slavery already existed. I can't totally explain why the law was written to include or exclude certain acts or why it provided for certain punishments and not others. The law served first of all to point the way to the messiah. It also separated the Jews from other groups. (Not because they were in any way superior)

I probably would have been one of the kids running away from the stones, though I doubt the law was often in need of enforcement.

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Quote:

Frank is the one who asserted that God considered slavery to be moral. He never proved his point other than to assert it loudly.

The words of the Bible itself, those sacred words which come from the very mouth and mind of god, prove Frank's point.

(By the way, he is very happy this thread is back up. Gleeful actually.)

Quote:

I can't totally explain why the law was written to include or exclude certain acts or why it provided for certain punishments and not others.

No wonder. No one can explain it, or explain it away.

Quote:

The law served first of all to point the way to the messiah. It also separated the Jews from other groups. (Not because they were in any way superior)

No, not that they were in any way superior, they just needed time on their own as all chosen people do. Right? What a nice god you've got there. There should be a sect: The Church of The First Segregationist.

Joe(First hymn: God on OUR side)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

. . . The words of the Bible itself, those sacred words which come from the very mouth and mind of god, prove Frank's point.

(By the way, he is very happy this thread is back up. Gleeful actually.)

Well howdy and welcome back to the thread, Joe (who doesn't care to offer any specific examples) Nation.

But let us not use the bible as an ambidextrous authority, recognizing one set of 'sacred words', while ignoring the rest.

And the words you ignore show Satan to be the father of human misery and the creator of slavery. They also identifies Satan as the ruler of the world. So let's fix responsibility where it belongs.

You say Frank is happy to have this thread back up. I would be most happy to have him return to it. Or, perhaps you could act as his mediator.

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neologist wrote:

snood wrote:
neologist wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.
Hi, CI. good to hear from you.

You do know that Satan is not the rebel's actual name, don't you? We capitalize the word satan (resister) to indicate the quintessential rebel, but his real name is never stated.

Satan became Satan when he decided to rebel.

We don't have to believe in free will to understand that the bible clearly supports the idea that Satan had a choice just as did Adam and Eve.

So, what was Satan's original name?
Don't know. Never mentioned. I doubt we will ever know, since his name doesn't seem to deserve remembrance.

On what do you base your statement that it is not his actual name?

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neologist wrote:

But there are some who use parts of the bible to 'prove' a point while ignoring those parts of the bible which controvert their argument.

Which is compelling evidence that scripture routinely and constantly contradicts itself.

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snood wrote:

neologist wrote:
snood wrote:
neologist wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
But god "created" satan the same way he created jesus.
Hi, CI. good to hear from you.

You do know that Satan is not the rebel's actual name, don't you? We capitalize the word satan (resister) to indicate the quintessential rebel, but his real name is never stated.

Satan became Satan when he decided to rebel.

We don't have to believe in free will to understand that the bible clearly supports the idea that Satan had a choice just as did Adam and Eve.

So, what was Satan's original name?
Don't know. Never mentioned. I doubt we will ever know, since his name doesn't seem to deserve remembrance.

On what do you base your statement that it is not his actual name?

The Hebrew word satan is used to mean 'rebel' or 'resister'. But when it is used with the definite article ha satan, it refers to God's chief adversary. Similarly, the Greek ho satanas is the custmary expression for the satan, the resister known as Satan.

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Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

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