Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

Man wrote the Old Testament after many hundreds of years of oral tradition. - Smile

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Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:
Hey, y'all need to at least start at point 'A', before you start going around in circles. Your question about evidence would rightly have been asked if he had said "Man was created in god's image." did you read it right, NH?

Jeez, Snood, I knew if you kept on posting, eventually you would say something reasonable -- something that mattered.

Now here you've gone and done it. Unfortunately, you've spoiled that amazing series of posts that went nowhere; did nothing; and contributed zip.

Oh well, I imagine you will start again very soon.

Or will you eventually shake whatever is bothering you and get back to posting with intelligence?

Evidently, you're keeping track of my posts, and have concluded that they by and large "go nowhere, do nothing and contribute zip." I, on the other hand, avoid threads you visit to beat to death with your self-absorbed, circular "logic". since we don't thinkmuch of each others' thoughts, my suggestion would be not to exchange them. I'll start.

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Interesting that God didn't tell His people the following:

"Go forth into the world and become slaves to all peoples. Own nothing. Let your children be as their chattel. And thereby prove that I am God and I provide for all people through My chosen people."

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snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
Hey, y'all need to at least start at point 'A', before you start going around in circles. Your question about evidence would rightly have been asked if he had said "Man was created in god's image." did you read it right, NH?

Jeez, Snood, I knew if you kept on posting, eventually you would say something reasonable -- something that mattered.

Now here you've gone and done it. Unfortunately, you've spoiled that amazing series of posts that went nowhere; did nothing; and contributed zip.

Oh well, I imagine you will start again very soon.

Or will you eventually shake whatever is bothering you and get back to posting with intelligence?

Evidently, you're keeping track of my posts, and have concluded that they by and large "go nowhere, do nothing and contribute zip." I, on the other hand, avoid threads you visit to beat to death with your self-absorbed, circular "logic". since we don't thinkmuch of each others' thoughts, my suggestion would be not to exchange them. I'll start.

Nah, ya can't fool me, Snood. You read everything I write. And I think the thing that bothers you about what I write is not that it involves "circular logic" -- but that it involves logic.

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No, man, I know its hard for you to believe everyone doesn't find you as fascinating as you do yourself, but when you start spoutin that migraine-inducing "You don't know what you say you know, and I'll tell you how I know that" drool, I really do look elsewhere.

You're probably just angry at me because my tan is better, right?

Whatever, Frank - you started this latest personal salvo, so you must like something about the exchange. Personally, I don't get anything from you but a strong desire for you to shut up.

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"Go forth into the world and become slaves to all peoples. Own nothing. Let your children be as their chattel. And thereby prove that I am God and I provide for all people through My chosen people."

There have been groups of people who either acted as though that was god's message or at least promoted the idea that it was his. Supposedly, monks and nuns often owned nothing although in his book, "In the Wake of the Black Death,"Norman Cantor points out correctly that many monisteries were wealthy.

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Frank

Quote:

At Leviticus 25:44, the god of the Bible tells Moses

The bible is one part history one part myth and one part fantasy. It was written by man at a time when slavery was a fact of life. Therefore it is not surprising to see that passage. Remember also that the Hebrews had just been released from slavery.

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What is going on lately? On almost every post I read people are insulting one another. This is not the abuzz. Come on guys disagreement is fine insults and derision is not let's try to be civil to each other.

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snood wrote:

No, man, I know its hard for you to believe everyone doesn't find you as fascinating as you do yourself...

But here you are, replying to what I wrote. So you do pay attention to what I say.

Quote:

...but when you start spoutin that migraine-inducing "You don't know what you say you know, and I'll tell you how I know that" drool, I really do look elsewhere.

I defy you to find anything in any posting of mine that tells anyone that they do not know what they say they know. I may tell them that I suspect they do not know what they say they know -- but I NEVER have phrased anything the way you just did. And of course, since I never said what you are pretending I've said -- I could not possibly have ever said that "I'll tell you how I know that."

Sounds like you just are having trouble understanding English. It's not a second language with you, is it?

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You're probably just angry at me because my tan is better, right?

My tan is above average -- but I do acknowledge that I have to work harder at getting it than you -- and yes, I will also acknowledge that there is a bit of jealousy involved there.

Quote:

Whatever, Frank - you started this latest personal salvo, so you must like something about the exchange. Personally, I don't get anything from you but a strong desire for you to shut up.

Actually, my quip was the result of several unanswered quips that you have sent my way in several threads lately -- and you know that you have. So this nonsense about me "starting this" is as inane as that baloney about you being bothered because I use "circular logic." (The "circular logic" charge, by the way, is almost always used by people who cannot logically dispute what another person is saying. It almost always is a back-door acknowledgement that the other person has made a point that cannot be logically refuted.)

I like you, Snood. Actually, I'm grateful to you. As a military man, you are on the front lines of my safety here in America and I sincerely thank you -- and your fellow soldiers for that.

I'm just getting a kick out of the anger or frustration that is causing you to post so many go-nowhere; do nothing; contribute zip posts recently -- and I thought I would mention it.

I've read my initial post on this issue over again -- and it sounds to me like it was written by a pussycat. But almost anything gets your hackles up these days -- so you've got to deal with that.

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gentleman, gentleman, gentleman - who will go first or stop first Smile

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You're right, Frank - I did post some "quips" at you, and I shouldn't have.
We don't just disagree because I can't stand how absolutely flawless your logic is, though. You say I'm bothered because you've made salient points;I think what bothers me is you keep making the same damned points, and are so impressed by yourself you don't even realize the horse is dead. Like hearing the same commercial over and over. "I'm Frank Apisa, and let me tell you about genuine agnosticism" Blah, blah, blah.

You put on all these intellectual airs, but your true nature is revealed when you say what a "kick" you're getting out of what you perceive as my frustration. Whatever turns your crank. You get a "kick" out of me; I just think you're another arrogant white man with a warped idea of his own importance.

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Would he be less aggravating if he were black, but had the same views?
A sincere question.

Was wondering why you threw his race in the discussion.

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Oh, that's a fair question... It's my personal opinion that a lot of unnecessary hardship and oppression in this world is caused by arrogant white men, moreso than by any other single demographic, simply because of (but that's a whole 'nother discussion about preference and privilege, and I don't think my one working brain cell can tackle all that). Hence my statement "...just another arrogant white man...".

<I know that's not going to go over completely well with evryone, but ya gotta give me points for honesty...>

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Snood

Let me start on a positive note.

snood wrote:

You're right, Frank - I did post some "quips" at you, and I shouldn't have.{/quote]

I thank you for that acknowledgement -- and for the inference that my recent "quip" could be considered "return fire."

Quote:
We don't just disagree because I can't stand how absolutely flawless your logic is, though. You say I'm bothered because you've made salient points;I think what bothers me is you keep making the same damned points, and are so impressed by yourself you don't even realize the horse is dead. Like hearing the same commercial over and over. "I'm Frank Apisa, and let me tell you about genuine agnosticism" Blah, blah, blah.

I think you protest too much here. You religious people have had thousands of years to make your case. The atheists in our group have had plenty of time to make their comments also.

But agnosticism has been given short-shrift over the years -- mostly by agnostics themselves. They tend to throw up their hands at the "beliefs" of theists and atheists -- and then go about their business.

I prefer a more activist role -- and I mention my agnosticism often.

In my opinion, my acknoledgement of "not knowing" is often the most truthful, most ethical, and most valuable sharing that is done in many threads.

As for it being "one note" -- it is anything but a one note offering. I make many, many comments in every thread on the issues being discussed -- and the agnostic statement is a minor part of what I have to say in most.

MY OPINION: You are bothered by the logic and strength of my arguments -- and not by the fact that I often state my agnostic position. You have a tendency, not only with me, to simply flash out in anger and then run away whenever you are confronted with logic and arguments that are above your ability to refute.

Bad habit. Get over it.

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You put on all these intellectual airs...

Christ, can't you come up with something a bit more "with it" than that?

I don't put on intellectual airs, Snood. I present my arguments as coherently and as plainly as I can -- and frankly, I am much more successful at "coherent" and "plain" than many, many others who post here.

Quote:
... but your true nature is revealed when you say what a "kick" you're getting out of what you perceive as my frustration.
Whatever turns your crank. .

Well, Snood, I've re-read what I wrote there -- and I will withdraw the "getting a kick."

My main point was made elsewhere in the sentence.

"I'm just getting a kick out of the anger or frustration that is causing you to post so many go-nowhere; do nothing; contribute zip posts recently -- and I thought I would mention it."

I thought it would be appropriate to call your attention to the fact that you are making a habit of posting comments that are nothing more than zingers -- and which add nothing to the principle discussion -- or to the many tangents these threads tend to take.

Your comments seem more often directed at an insult -- than at refuting or rebutting arguments -- and I think that is something reasonable to mention.

In any case, if you want to know the real me -- I am a pussycat. A nice guy. A good, loyal friend. An honest person. And one hell of a guy to tangle with in a discussion forum.

And I am very modest! (That last one was a joke -- but I suspect you knew that immediately!)

Quote:

You get a "kick" out of me; I just think you're another arrogant white man with a warped idea of his own importance.

What in Hell is that about?

Think that one over.

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To the people concerned with insults --

I do not think I am insulting anyone. I'm discussing something with Snood.

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I do give you points for honesty.

You piled Frank in with every white guy who oppressed or was arrogant. Before, when you were addressing his posts, he was an individual--with whom you disagreed. Then, you categorized him in a sweeping judgmental statement--thumping an entire demographic and him.

We are learning not to pile all blacks together, and make a blanket judgement-- It is equally wrong to say 'just another white guy', as it is to say 'just another black guy', alluding to stereotypical characteristics. Things like this just hinder our getting down to the 'content of our characters.'

Anyhow-- I've made my statement, and don't feel the need to pursue, unless you do.

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But if he told me that he thought I was "just another black guy with a chip on his shoulder", I think I'm aware enough to believe he had experienced or knew of a lot of black guys with chips on their shoulders. I happen to have had experience with, and have knowledge of a lot of white guys who are full of themselves.

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And Frank - you said something about me "running away" when someone scores on me in a discussion. You are entitled to your opinion. You cannot control my reactions to what you say, and sometimes, I simply get my fill of you. Again, that may be hard for you to believe. You will probably say that's all nonsense; and I suspect you would like to be the one to say when a discussion has netted all that it can. I don't think there is any resolution between faith and agnosticism except two adults agreeing to disagree. I appreciate you saying you "like" me, but we don't have to like each other - we simply have to give each other enough respect to air our views without malice. You don't have to believe that I simply don't continue with you in some conversations because I don't feel anything is gained by it - but I humbly suggest you at least entertain the idea, since the alternative is accusing everyone who doesn't particularly enjoy your thoughts of "running away". That's arrogant - isn't it?

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Snood

If the charge is "arrogant" -- I plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I liked your last post. You said what you had to say -- and you did it, in my opinion, politely, respectfully and reasonably -- or at least, as politely, respectfully and reasonably as our present little tiff allows.

I enjoyed reading what you had to say -- and I don't have much else to add from my side. If anything comes up, I'll post.

But right now, fireworks beckon. And I never pass up a chance for fireworks.

Berkeley Heights, New Jersey on July 16th -- same date every year. The five day "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel" festival ends tonight at 11:15 pm (yeah, it is late) -- and it ends with a fireworks display of major league proportions. I'd stack it up against any other small town display -- and against some larger cities displays.

World class fireworks manufacture and displayer, Santora (Santori) Brothers are from the town -- and they do it up big time for the place.

So off I go into the dark, dark blue yonder.

Ahhh...while it is on my mind, I want to reiterate something.

Thanks for standing guard. Not just you, Snood -- but all (as we say in my home state) youse -- all the men and women standing guard.

That is no small favor you are doing us.

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uh...sure, Frank.

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Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

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