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Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

 
 
dupre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2003 03:34 pm
Marvin Harris will always be esteemed among anthropologists and others, even if some of his view points have been refuted.

Anthropologists just like people in many (every?) other discipline love to debate what great thinkers have to say.

Name any great thinker who, or great thought which, has not been refuted by someone, somewhere, sometime.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2003 10:29 pm
truth
I'm only saying that Harris' general approach is no longer esteemed in anthropological circles. His Cultural Materialism and to a lesser extent his extreme positivism are outdated. I do agree with you that he was one of the very best advocates of that approach. As long as it lasted. But it went, along with Harris, the way of Napoleon Chagnon.
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dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 02:17 am
Quote:
Chagnon's friends can play at psychoanalysis, too, and they see dark motivations in the forces aligned against him. "The biggest cause is jealousy," says William Irons, an anthropologist at Northwestern University. "Nap's written a major book that's stood up for many years and actually made money. How many academics can say that?"

Besides raw envy, Irons sees competition over the control of the Yanomamo as a potent political symbol. Like wealthy liberals who entertained Black Panthers in the '60s, today's environmentalists get a thrill out of identifying with the least-developed tribe on earth. To boost their political agenda, they want to present the Yanomamo as innocent and peaceful. "The facts that are found in the field don't matter to them," Irons says. "What matters is their utopian view of the nature of mankind."

Over decades of study, Chagnon has become convinced that the urge to organize and fight is a practical necessity that resides deep inside us and not in modern economies or politics. He sees that ferocity and aggression are favored by modern societies as well as in Yanomamoland. He points to the memorials and honors bestowed on soldiers and warriors during every historical period. For further evidence of aggression on a visceral level, he might also look to his own situation. Ideas are supposed to compete freely in science and the academy, but this ideal has been lost in his own case. His detractors in anthropology show no sympathy or compassion.

"I can't feel sorry for him," says Harris, who, like Chagnon, is at the end of his career. "He's been too much a braggart. He took on the Catholic Church when he shouldn't have. Now he's paying. I can't say I feel bad about that."


Opposition to Chagnon mostly had to do with his huge success: Anthropologists seem to be largely a jealous, competitive group! His textbook was required reading at many universities.

People feared his findings and stories would encourage Nazism? What? Are they insane?

Some rejection too from those who fear eugenics. Everybody has an agenda. Few want to do the hard work of spending 15 months in the jungle to get to some raw data and facts. Arm-chair philosophers.

The Catholic church was offended because they feared he was leading the Yanomanos away from the control of the Catholic missionaries. They were worried about their funding. Too bad! Proves my point, most conflict and religion is about money or some definition of economics.

He was a braggart . . . so what? I think he had reason to swagger. I know lots of folks who swagger here in Texas having accomplished very little.

Marvin Harris also wrote, what?, about 16 titles, many bestsellers to the general public. Woe to the anthropologist who makes it big.

You know, in Hollywood there may be a lot of behind the scenes backstabbing, but when they are interviewed, everyone they ever worked with was "wonderful, marvelous, professional, funny."

Too bad anthropologists can't come together as a professional group. But, that's probably why they became anthropologists to begin with. They just wondered if there was any group of people better, more worth their time, than the people they came from.

The profession seems to attract educated, egocentric malcontents.

I'll return with a link to the whole essay, if I can find it again. That quote above actually isn't the best part.
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dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 02:22 am
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:IfGEPiJRMfgJ:cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Chagnon_00.html+Napoleon+Chagnon&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
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dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 03:08 am
I've just been checking around on google.

Seems that Cultural Materialism is alive and well, if not for everyone, then at least for many.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 10:02 am
truth
Well, Dupre, I see where you are now, not an undergraduate inflamed by the "clarity" of Harris' fundamentalism but a full-blown positivist. Your defense of Chagnon on the grounds of persecution by the Catholic Church is, I think, significantly misled. While the Church may have been very unhappy with him, his academic (I should say intellectual credibility) downfall resulted from the fact that his positivism and Cultural Materialism are almost completely outdated. It would be very difficult to find living followers of that paradigm. Wasserstrom might be one (he worked with Harris in Florida for a while). But it's in good part also because of Chagnon's sociobiology. And I've never heard or read of his critics (credible ones that is) attacking him on grounds of the Nazi implications of the eugenics implications of sociobiology. Chagnon seems to have been at a loss to understand and explain Yanomani behavior, so he "adopted" the sociobiological model to superimpose on their actions as an "explanation" (a deductive not inductive explanation, which is not what anthropologist do). Wilson's research on insects is very sound, but its extension/extrapolation to humans is grossly reductionistic and does great violence to human beings as bearers and creators of culture. I really do not want to engage you further on this subject. I've spent too many years doing so with other Harrisians. It would be too much work; I'm here for intellectual recreation, and I don't believe others would be that interested. But I appreciate your energy. You must be much younger than me.
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dupre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 03:13 pm
Thanks for your eloquent response. Please pardon my lashing out at 3 something in the morning. I never heard of Chagnon before.

My anger is personal and stems from my associate professors in anthropology. I got a late start with college as a non-traditional student. My pent-up demand for knowledge had accumulated for twenty years, years of marriage, raising a child, divorce, seeing a sweetheart die of cancer. Everytime I tried to go back to college, life interfered.

One professor suggested, at the beginning of the term, that I "start reading now."

I gathered up about 200 books on anthropology from used bookstores. Everything I read, they said was "dated." They loved to debate and deconstruct what every other anthropologist had to say, yet I never saw them offer any direction toward "current" thinking, or any plausible ideas of their own.

If cultural anthropologists deconstruct everything, what is left?

There's no framework to hold the "data" on. No frame of reference.

I thought Marvin Harris was wonderful in providing that. If there are holes in his approach, I believe it's still the best.

I never heard of positivism, either. I am not an expert. I got frustrated with anthropology and switched to English.

Still curious, though.

Sorry I lashed out at you. I should've lashed out several years ago to my associate professors.

Anyway, I thought your response was most considerate and informative and I appreciate it.

And I will refrain from argumentative early morning postings.

Best.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2003 04:31 pm
truth
Dupre, no need to apologize. Your contributions are stimulating--what more can we ask? Very Happy
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 06:28 am
Re: truth
JLNobody wrote:
Dupre, no need to apologize. Your contributions are stimulating--what more can we ask? Very Happy


Amen!

A little passion is refreshing at times.

Even I, normally a pussycat who would hardly shoo a fly, will occasionally become impassioned.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 10:07 am
"Occasionally," Frank? You're a gas. Wink c.i.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 03:58 pm
truth
C.I., occasionally?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 05:58 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Occasionally," Frank? You're a gas. Wink c.i.

I thought you would enjoy that, ci.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 06:16 pm
Heah Frank, at least one can't accuse you of understatement! Laughing Right Question
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 08:09 pm
Rats!

I've been found out!

Rats!
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Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2003 10:33 pm
Frank

Back to the slavery question (and the homosexuality question, and the deformity question):

Why couldn't these abominable ideas represent the views of God?

Why do we presume that God's moral standards (if he exists) must resemble our own? Couldn't the creator of the universe be self-centered and cruel, and the contradictions in the Bible a sign of His divine contempt for us?

At least understood that way, the whole Bible would make sense.
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dupre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 03:57 pm
Greyfan, nice twist. I applaud you.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 04:24 pm
Greyfan wrote:
Frank

Back to the slavery question (and the homosexuality question, and the deformity question):

Why couldn't these abominable ideas represent the views of God?

Why do we presume that God's moral standards (if he exists) must resemble our own? Couldn't the creator of the universe be self-centered and cruel, and the contradictions in the Bible a sign of His divine contempt for us?

At least understood that way, the whole Bible would make sense.


As I have mentioned in several dozens of threads here and in Abuzz -- I am an agnostic and although I guess the god of the Bible to be purely fictional, I do not KNOW for sure that the god does or does not exist.

And I have often added, that god, complete with its barbaric, murderous, jealous, vindictive, vengeful, myopic, demaning, quick to anger, petty spirit -- may exist.

So I agree with you.

Christians -- people who claim there is a GOD -- and that the GOD is kind, loving, slow to anger, quick to forgive, just and all that -- have a choice. They can insist that the god of the Bible is GOD -- and worship the god knowing what a scumbag it is -- or they can simply say that the god of the Bible is not their GOD.

I'll stick with "I do not know if a God exists; I do not know if there are no gods; and I cannot see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess."

And of course, as I said earlier, I will continue to guess that the god of the Bible is fiction.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 10:59 pm
This is a good one to revive because nobody was able to torch Frank's straw man.

Anybody?

I'm bookmarking here and promise to return.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 08:59 pm
Don't besmirch Frank's memory. Let him rest in peace.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 09:38 pm
Unless I misunderstnad peoples religious backgrounds in here, it would appear that after 9 pages the only people offering rationale for Biblical approval of slavery is non-christians?

Neo - I hope you are coming back. And when you return I hope you have something to offer better than slavery being metaphorical or something to the effect that takes the heat of of the bible. I think the issue of slavery is worth discussiong.

As to whoever brought up that the context of when the bibloe was written as being imporatn. That is to say that Slavery was fair and commonplace at the time, so it's appearance in the bible is understandable. To you (not nessisarily you) I would ask then why in contemporary times do these passeges stil remain in the book?

My guess would be that to amend the book now in an age of mass communication would ilegitimize the book for so many. If it was just as simple as amending the book; the perfect book, it would make the bible no more significant than any other book that recieves revision. All abrahamic faiths would be in conflict:

Do what is right, or uphold what you value.

being that such horrible passeges are still in the bible, I'd say that those with the power to do so have shown true moral deficit to act.
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