Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

Steve 41oo wrote:

. . . So you're a Gnostic?

neologist wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

. . . So you're a Gnostic?

you could say yes or no but to pretend ignorance seems to me to be playing games

Steve 41oo wrote:

neologist wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

. . . So you're a Gnostic?

you could say yes or no but to pretend ignorance seems to me to be playing games

I'm saying no, of course. The question relates to the source of your presumption.

neologist wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

neologist wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:

. . . So you're a Gnostic?

you could say yes or no but to pretend ignorance seems to me to be playing games

I'm saying no, of course. The question relates to the source of your presumption.

you seemed to be talking about the dualistic nature of the godhead. The god of the World Rex Mundi

And the higher God, who does not directly interfer in the affairs of the world. These are gnostic concepts if I understand correctly. If I misunderstood you I apologise.

cicerone imposter wrote:

xingu, I finally read your sig line; love it! LOL

Re; this sig line:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips

In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.

neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

xingu, I finally read your sig line; love it! LOL

Re; this sig line:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips

In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.

But what happens if a truck runs over the bike?

xingu wrote:

. . . .
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Typical of your bogus cut-and-paste research done without attention to detail.

The word here translated hell, Gehenna is a reference to the valley of Hinnom, the place for the burning of garbage outside of Jerusalem. It was a cursed place where the bodies of criminals and those unworthy of burial would be destroyed in the sulfurous fires that were kept burning day and night. Those unworthy of burial (unworthy of the grave, or sheol) might also be unworthy of resurrection. But the consequence was merely final, not ongoing.

From this little study of the Greek word, Hades, we learn this:
Hades is down (Luke 10:15)
Those in Hades are being tormented (Luke 16:23) in flames (vs 24.)
All dead do not go to Hades. Some go to "Abraham's Bosom."
(Luke 16:22, 25)
Once you are dead, there is nothing you can do about about your whereabouts. (Luke 16:26)
The soul (the conscious part of us) is what goes to Hades. (Acts 2:27.)
Jesus (who was dead but is now alive forever) has the keys of Hades. (Rev 1:18.)
The dead who are in Hades, will one day come out to be judged. (Rev 20:13)
Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14.)

Q. Is there a biblical basis for a belief that hell is real or that it exists?

Yes, indeed. There are various texts that suggest hell exists. For example, we have the parable of Jesus about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. That parable makes evident that this life is the place of decision. How we believe and behave here will determine our eternal destiny. The parable suggests that once you go to hell, you cannot come back. In other texts, Jesus refers to hell as Gehenna, an Aramaic term based on the name Hinnom, the valley just south of Jerusalem where garbage was regularly burned (see Matthew 18:8-9). The image of hell as similar to Gehenna--a place where the fire does not go out and the worm never dies--suggests a very unpleasant place (see also Matthew 13:42, 50).

A sampling of quotations, mostly by individual Christians:
"If you are a [born-again] Christian, you will go to heaven; If you're following another religion, then by default you will go to Hell." Radio program "Life on the Edge," sponsored by Focus on the Family, and directed to teens, 2001-MAY-5.

"If YOU believe in Evolution instead of Jesus, you'll end up in hell." Chick Publications' gospel tract "Apes, lies and Ms. Henn." (Emphasis in the original)

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)

"...we are asked to believe that God endlessly tortures sinners by the million, sinners who perish because the Father has decided not to elect them to salvation [while they were alive on earth], though he could have done so, and whose torments are supposed to gladden the hearts of believers in heaven. The problems with this doctrine are both extensive and profound." C.H. Pinnock 1

"How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself." Clark H. Pinnock. 2

"Neither the Christian Ministry, nor the Christian church, are responsible for the doctrine of eternal perdition. It is given in charge to the ministry, and to the Church, by the Lord Christ Himself, in His last commission, as a truth to be preached to every creature." William Shedd. 3

"Christian theology firmly believes that if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to 'burn in Hell.'.... this is a crazy notion that man made up and contradicts what God says in the Jewish Bible." S.J. Greenstein, 4

"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly, they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell." Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274 CE), Summa Theologica. 5

"How will you spend eternity -- Smoking or Nonsmoking?" Floral City United Methodist Church 6

xingu wrote:

neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

xingu, I finally read your sig line; love it! LOL

Re; this sig line:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips

In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.

But what happens if a truck runs over the bike?

He should thank God it didn't run over him and go buy a new bike for his victim.

In the case where he is riding the bike as the truck runs over it and him, I suggest that xingu buy the victim a new bike in a philanthropic gesture. He should also take up a collection for the thief's funeral, since He encouraged him to steal.

neo: In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.


Since when did you start to speak for god?

. . . .I didn't encourge him to steal, God did. Don't you remember that God forgives sinners, provided they're Christian sinners. Non-Christian sinners can go to Hell.

. . .
You miss the point. The early Christians did not see it as Gehenna. Gehenna is the ignominious disposal of a body. The early Christians were talking about a hellfire that lasted for eternity. What you have here is not Gehenna. Gehenna is seperate from Hades.

. . .

And lets not forget that Mat. 16:18 the Gates of Hell are mentioned. Were there any gates at Gehenna?

. . .

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)

"...we are asked to believe that God endlessly tortures sinners by the million, sinners who perish because the Father has decided not to elect them to salvation [while they were alive on earth], though he could have done so, and whose torments are supposed to gladden the hearts of believers in heaven. The problems with this doctrine are both extensive and profound." C.H. Pinnock 1

"How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself." Clark H. Pinnock. 2
. . .
"Christian theology firmly believes that if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to 'burn in Hell.'.... this is a crazy notion that man made up and contradicts what God says in the Jewish Bible." S.J. Greenstein, 4

cicerone imposter wrote:

neo: In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.


Since when did you start to speak for god?

How could he ask forgiveness from God if he continues to possess someone else's property?

neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

neo: In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.


Since when did you start to speak for god?

How could he ask forgiveness from God if he continues to possess someone else's property?

Were you ever a child of need?

Since god already determined that all are sinners, why can't god forgive the child who asks for forgiveness? If a person kills another, then asks for forgiveness, it's refused by god?

Again, you miss the point. Where do Christians get the idea of Hell. From the Bible. And it isn't recent. As I have shown you with pasting the earliest Christians believed in Hell.

Hell is an evolved idea as Christianity is. Combine Gehenna with pagan underground and you have the early Christian version of Hell. After all that's what Christianity is. It's the marriage of pagan and Jew.

Did Jesus say there was a Hell? Did he mean the Hell Christians believe today? Well who cares what Jesus meant. Its what his followers interpret his meaning that counts. After all Christ was not a Christian, nor Catholic, nor a God. He was a Jew, from birth to death. Nothing more.

In the Christian religion, Hell, Trinity, full body resurrection, virgin birth--all come from paganism. What do you expect if your going to convert pagans. They want what they are comfortable with in their religion.

Is the Bible accurate in its discription of Hell? If Jesus was a Jew and Jews don't believe in the Christian Hell than there should be nothing in the Bible that tells us there is a Hell. But the Bible is what it is.

There are many versions of the Bible. Some people, such as Catholics, swear by the King James version. Others don't. So what did the origional authors say and mean. We don't know. We may never know. Religion is a man made device so it gets corrupted by those who make it. Scriptures have been copied and translated for centuries. How true are they to the origional? Did the translators make mistakes? Did they add or delete passages to conform to their ideas? We will never know but knowing what we know about humans, especially religious humans, we can be sure that when it comes to religion we do not have what the origional authors said or meant. I don't think we can look at the KJV or any version of the Bible and get the true meaning of what the origional authors said or meant.

Regardless of what Jesus may have meant it is what his followers wanted to believe that counts. And his earliest followers believed in a burning Hell that tormented the soul for eternity.

Here's a site that backs up what you say.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

But as you have seen from my cutting and pasting the earliest Christians believed in Hell. And that Hell was believed by the Christians before there was a New Testament.

Christians will not drop Hell. Hell is a vehicle of hate. It is used to instill fear. That's why the earliest Christians used it. An angry vengeful God who send souls into the burning depths to be tortured for eternal time. But to escape this all you had to do was to believe and obey. It worked in the 2nd century as well as it works today.

Was that Jesus' message? Who knows. What were the motives and beliefs of those religious people who wrote the Gospels, who copied them, who translated them?

The Bible is a God-awful mess. That's why you have so many different beliefs steming from this one book. And it's not just one Bible. There appears to be about 40 of them! It seems one can translate the Bible to make it say what they want it to say.

Is that God's word?

No, the other option that I would choose is to make sure that my grandson says, "you can keep the bike." He would know that other children are not as fortunate, and his generosity would be the outcome.

Did you ever read Les Miserables?

You accurately place the idea of a fiery hell on the pagans. But your claim that the early Christians believed in eternal punishment is incorrect. Apostasy and pagan teachings began creeping into the Christian congregation shortly after the death of the apostles. The texts you have cited are all 2nd century or later.

If, when the King James Version was translated, you would have told someone to go to hell, he would have assumed you were speaking of his root cellar.