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Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 07:32 am
So the Devil rules the Earth and God sends to Hell anyone who will not believe in Him in the proper manner, or who go to church on Sunday (according to the SDA), or if your a Catholic, or a JW, or a Mormon, and on and on and on.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 08:20 am
Yup, They are two-timing us.

Joe(got us coming and going)Nation
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 08:25 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
. . . So you're a Gnostic?
Question
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 08:34 am
Okay. Back to the storyline.


Joe(so two gods are duking it out and one was disowned. Right?)Nation
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:30 am
xingu wrote:
So the Devil rules the Earth and God sends to Hell anyone who will not believe in Him in the proper manner, or who go to church on Sunday (according to the SDA), or if your a Catholic, or a JW, or a Mormon, and on and on and on.
Hell?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:36 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Okay. Back to the storyline.


Joe(so two gods are duking it out and one was disowned. Right?)Nation
Sorry, disowned was my word. But the rebel has been told his consequence in Genesis 3:15.

I didn't say two gods duking it out, you know. Those are your words.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:40 am
neologist wrote:
xingu wrote:
So the Devil rules the Earth and God sends to Hell anyone who will not believe in Him in the proper manner, or who go to church on Sunday (according to the SDA), or if your a Catholic, or a JW, or a Mormon, and on and on and on.
Hell?


Ya, the Bible talks about it, right? I mean if your going to throw people into the lake of fire that can be considered hell, you think so?

And with so many Christians talking about Hell and damnation since the beginning of Christianity there has to be something to it, don't you think?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:46 am
"Hell" is a christian concept; they originated the idea, and it continues on to this day.

Fear works; look at how our government uses it to control the populace.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:51 am
xingu wrote:
neologist wrote:
xingu wrote:
So the Devil rules the Earth and God sends to Hell anyone who will not believe in Him in the proper manner, or who go to church on Sunday (according to the SDA), or if your a Catholic, or a JW, or a Mormon, and on and on and on.
Hell?


Ya, the Bible talks about it, right? I mean if your going to throw people into the lake of fire that can be considered hell, you think so?

And with so many Christians talking about Hell and damnation since the beginning of Christianity there has to be something to it, don't you think?
In fact, the idea of fiery hell has not been part of Christianity from the beginning.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with the words I have posted. I often step on my tongue. But don't ask me to defend the hellfire strawman.
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:55 am
Joe Nation wrote:
The genius part about the loving god is that he never shows up. Believers pray to him and build huge cathedrals and sing hymns and rotate rosary beads at light speed but the loving god alway turns out to be as unfeeling as Nature. (Surprise. Surprise.)

Or that God never shows up in the way that you demand. God shows up in some form to those who approach with love. We are also allowed to see the universe that we desire. If you are a existentialist or atheist you will tend to see a cruel, uncaring universe. To those who see God in every blade of grass, the world reflects His love and intelligence. Death and destruction are difficult but need not be as terrible as some seem to think. I had a medical situation 6 months ago in which I was facing the distinct possibility of death. I was not afraid or unhappy. Maybe just a slight sadness, like saying good bye to a loved one. I was also in pain but I didn't mind it that much, and so didn't request painkillers. (The doctor was surprised and said I had an unusually high pain threshold.) The experience taught me that pain and death need not be the horrors that they're sometimes portrayed to be.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:55 am
What Say the Scriptures Concerning Hell?
"Hell" As an English Word
"Hell" in the Old Testament
"Hell" in the New Testament
Other Occurrences of the Word "Hell"
Everlasting Punishment
The Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet
Tormented
Turned into Hell
Did the Jews Believe in Everlasting Torment?
Choose Life That Ye May Live
Forgivable and Unpardonable Sins
Future Retribution
Let Honesty and Truth Prevail
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 09:58 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Hell" is a christian concept; they originated the idea, and it continues on to this day.

Fear works; look at how our government uses it to control the populace.
Hell is the English word which comes from the Hebrew word sheol. To the Hebrews it meant only the grave. When the Septuagint was translated, the Greek word hades was used in its place.

If, when the King James Version was translated, you would have told someone to go to hell, he would have assumed you were speaking of his root cellar. Helling potatoes, anyone?

The association of the word hell with fiery punishment is a capitulation of nominal christianity to the pagan doctrines which entered the church, most notably in the 4th century.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 10:01 am
neo, Do you think the translator who included "hell" in the bible will go to hell for his works? LOL
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 10:01 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
What Say the Scriptures Concerning Hell?
"Hell" As an English Word
"Hell" in the Old Testament
"Hell" in the New Testament
Other Occurrences of the Word "Hell"
Everlasting Punishment
The Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet
Tormented
Turned into Hell
Did the Jews Believe in Everlasting Torment?
Choose Life That Ye May Live
Forgivable and Unpardonable Sins
Future Retribution
Let Honesty and Truth Prevail
Where did you dig these up?
They do not all refer to the same topic; so what are you saying?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 10:04 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
neo, Do you think the translator who included "hell" in the bible will go to hell for his works? LOL
Not the translators' fault, necessarily, according to the common use of the word in the 1600s.

Blame the fire and brimstone preachers who need to scare a few $ into the collection plate.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 10:12 am
Seems to work pretty well; the collection plate, I mean.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 11:08 am
neologist wrote:
In fact, the idea of fiery hell has not been part of Christianity from the beginning.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with the words I have posted. I often step on my tongue. But don't ask me to defend the hellfire strawman.


I disagree.

Quote:
150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).

150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).

150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIX)

150 AD Justin Martyr: while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XX)

150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: Nor can the devils persuade men that there will be no conflagration for the punishment of the wicked; as they were unable to effect that Christ should be hidden after He came. But if they believe that there is nothing after death, but declare that those who die pass into insensibility, then they become our benefactors when they set us free from sufferings and necessities of this life, and prove themselves to be wicked, and inhuman, and bigoted. For they kill us with no intention of delivering us, but cut us off that we may be deprived of life and pleasure. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. LVII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire. (The Second Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)

150 AD Justin Martyr: assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)

150 AD Justin Martyr: And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "Trypho," says he, "I am called; and I am a Hebrew of the circumcision,.They affirm that the same things shall always happen; and, further, that I and you shall again live in like manner, having become neither better men nor worse. But there are some others, who, having supposed the soul to be immortal and immaterial, believe that though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is insensible), and that the soul, in consequence of its immortality, needs nothing from God." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. I)

150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)

150 AD Justin Martyr: Here Plato seems to me to have learnt from the prophets not only the doctrine of the judgment, but also of the resurrection, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus and the rest have undergone such punishment in Hades, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet and skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head and hands, and feet and skin. But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, and having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body. (Justin's Hortatory Address To The Greeks, Chap. XXVII)

155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).

160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).

177 AD Athenagoras "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).

181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).

197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3).

197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).

212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).

226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).

250 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).

252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24).

252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).

307 AD Lactantius "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).

350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19).

452 AD St. Patrick "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4).

http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 11:14 am
xingu, I finally read your sig line; love it! LOL
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 11:55 am
xingu wrote:
. . . .
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Typical of your bogus cut-and-paste research done without attention to detail.

The word here translated hell, Gehenna is a reference to the valley of Hinnom, the place for the burning of garbage outside of Jerusalem. It was a cursed place where the bodies of criminals and those unworthy of burial would be destroyed in the sulfurous fires that were kept burning day and night. Those unworthy of burial (unworthy of the grave, or sheol) might also be unworthy of resurrection. But the consequence was merely final, not ongoing.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jul, 2007 11:57 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
xingu, I finally read your sig line; love it! LOL
Re; this sig line:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips

In reality, the bike snatcher could not be forgiven until he returned the bike.
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