1
   

Ban Girls Gone Wild Commercials?

 
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:05 pm
ok. I was just going on nimh's post.....
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:07 pm
nimh wrote:
Yeah CalamityJane, but what is your kid watching when you're not in the room - or, rather, when your kid's hanging out with friends?

Sure these things are the parent's responsibility eventually - mostly in educating their children in how to process the images and messages they're gonna be confronted with anyhow. But you also got to acknowledge that parents can't police their children non-stop, and it would be bad even if they were actually gonna try - bad for the kids. So you should be able to let your kids go hang out (and perhaps watch TV) with their friends or the neighbours or whatever without needing to worry about what extreme stuff they'll come across.

Again, I'm actually quite sceptical about how much harm seeing people on TV make out does to kids (not much, I'm guessing - definitely not half as much as some parents probably suspect). But I dont think its unreasonable for citizens to say, look it - we want to live in a country where you can safely let your child out of sight for a minute in the assurance that they wont be confronted, for random example, with explicit sex and violence on daytime TV. Thats a perfectly legitimate request.


We limit watching TV alltogether, however, I am more concerned if
the neighbors - where my child could play - have a gun in the house,
then my child seeing a commercial that's a bit raunchy.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:34 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
however, I am more concerned if
the neighbors - where my child could play - have a gun in the house,
then my child seeing a commercial that's a bit raunchy.

Oh, for sure. I'm with you in that I also consider raunchy ads to rank rather low on the overall list of dangers to children.

But you know - overall, of course, I'm more concerned about, say, climate change than about the fate of the trees in the street over there <points> -- but that didnt stop me from demonstrating to save those trees. That something else is more troublesome doesnt somehow prove that this is not.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:38 pm
-----------------

I guess theres a deeper question behind this, and it came up with the example of billboards. Thomas, the doctrinaire libertarian that he is, would hear of no restrictions even there; Occom Bill was more pragmatic and pointed out that, since there is no way for parents to avoid their children from seeing them, it's reasonable to regulate 'em some.

The question behind this, then, is of public space - and in a way, the airwaves (for terrestrial TV at least) are public space.

Who does the public space belong to? The citizens/residents? The state? The corporations and enterprises? To what extent are numbers 1 and 3 as much one and the same thing as libertarians tend to describe 'em?

Bear with me, for a moment.

The libertarian argument is that any regulation of public space is an encroachment of individual freedom, and therefore should be opposed by principle. But there is a disconnect between the rhetorics, the theoretical principle, and what the practice looks like in reality.

Eg: neither you, nor I, nor Craven and his A2K, have the money to buy huge billboards along the motorways. To plaster downtown building facades full of these messages, appeals, incentives, commercials. We dont have the money.

Corporations do. They have the money to bombard us with messages all along the highway, in the elevator, 20 minutes out of every hour on TV, in the tram and in the taxi - and to pose them ever more so that it becomes literally impossible for us to shut them out (see the taxi link). It's they who have the power - more so, nowadays, than the state. Yet they represent only a small percentage of the population.

So who does the public space belong to? How much of it are we Ok with being bought up?

When you look at the end result, the contradiction between the rhetorics of libertarian principle and its practical effects is pretty easily visible. The rhetorics is that of "individual freedom", and how citizens should be safeguarded from their lives being interfered with by the government. But in practice, you can spend your day with your kids in the city, or inside in your home, and hardly be confronted with any government message at all. But you will be bombarded non-stop by commercial messages that are designed to maximally influence your thinking and behavior. We've become conditioned to not even notice anymore. But try for a day - hell, even just an hour - that you spend outside, to count how many commercial messages you unwittingly, unwillingly, instinctively read, on the back of the bus, on page 3 of your newspaper, on the side of the phonebooth.

It is the individual freedom of the makers of those commercial messages to make, publish and broadcast them. But by doing so, they impose on all the others the duty to filter those out, to select and avoid, and even, in the end, to arrange their and their childrens' lives - in this case, viewing behaviour - around them. The individual freedom of the business here leads to extra work and practical complications for the regular citizen. This is unavoidable to some extent of course, but where comes the tipping point? And is it really that logical that the libertarian notion of "individual freedom" comes to translate, in practice, in a succession of extra burdens for a regular individual?

Take the classical libertarian advice to parents. You have the responsibility for your own kids. Aint no state or organisation or school or what not to pass it on to, you have to buck up, take up your task to care and protect as you should. In short, if you dont want your kids to see something, its up to you to check he doesnt see it. Which means, to make sure he doesnt watch the wrong TV channels, programs, commercials, doesnt go anywhere where he would be confronted with it, etc.

Right. But in the name of the same freedom, you then have a system in which businesses can flood public space with messages, images and what not that the parent might or might not want their kid to see. Whether we're talking mainstream TV or the street outside with its billboards or whatnot - it is those same parents who, with the ever-increasing commercialisation of space, end up having to positively slalom and obstacle course through it to avoid whatever unwanted images and messages are thrust onto them.

So you have an ideology that places all responsibility firmly and exclusively on the parent's shoulders, while at the same time giving a free hand to businesses to make the parents' task ever harder. For a good example, check out how toy producers go to seminars to learn how best to target their messages directly at children - the New Yorker's recent story about Bratz described how business managers were told that they should deliberately aim to force the parents' hands by encouraging the children to plead and beg them.

There is something wrong with this contradiction; something off in the definition of "individual freedom" here. If it is the citizen, that same private individual whom the libertarian notion purports to defend, who is forced to navigate an ever more intrusive commercial onslaught, 'brought to you' by a small segment of the population, throughout publicly accessible spaces and places, what is it with individual freedom then? Is that individual freedom?

Sounds to me like its not just the state, its the corporations who can interfere with your lives in many unasked-for ways as well, and that that is part of the problem. I mean, practically speaking - short of costly solutions like TiVo or the like (I dont think we even have that here), the barrage of commercial messages thrust on us through the TV commercials are the equivalent of spam. We have to go to great lengths (eg DVR skipping) to avoid these infringements into our consciousness, our time and personal space, that we never asked for in the first place.

Now I'm not suggesting some kind of overall ban on commercials. What I am saying is that it is either simplistic or doctrinaire to put the issue of parents asking for the regulation of some of them as an assault on freedom. In many ways, it is an attempt by citizens to protect their freedom - their freedom from commercial intrusions that can only be avoided through more extra practical steps.

Somehow, libertarians never hesitate a second to plead the case of citizens defending themselves against government intrusion, but when it comes to corporate/commercial intrusion, they act like the interests of citizens and corporations are somehow one and the same thing. When at least the government is elected - the boss of GGW, or McDonalds or Marlboro or whatever can at the very most be elaborately argued to have been'elected' by his consumers.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:48 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Your desire to let the will of the many override the rights of the few is a fundamental error when contemplating the protection of constitutional rights.


What I'm not understanding is precisely what "rights of the few" do you think are being infringed with time restrictions on this type of broadcast? The regulation I proposed is narrowly tailored and necessary to achieve the compelling government interest of protecting children, which is a valid restriction on speech, and completely in line with Constitutional safeguards.

Quote:
Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.


Yes, we will.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:03 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
littlek wrote:
nimh, do you know that GGW is more than just kids making out?


We also should mention that these commercials are only shown at
pay channel stations.


Um, I don't have cable or satelite TV, just broadcast with rabbit ears. I see those commericals quite a bit, mostly on what we used to know as the UHF channels (the ones above 13). I don't know what they're called as a group now.

They're there right along with all the dial-a-date chat by phone ads that make it look like you'll have a herd of tall buxom blondes flocking to your door if you just make that call.
0 Replies
 
2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:15 pm
http://www.latimes.com/features/magazine/west/la-tm-gonewild32aug06,0,2664370.story

An article about Mr. Francis, it is lengthy folks.

I've never seen any of the GGW commercials early in the evening...late at night yes, on multiple channels...but if I did, I would not be happy about it.

Censorship...I don't even like the word, muchless the use of it, but I do not like "sleazy bastard" types either. So like a few others on this thread, I'm conflicted on the issue.

I will honestly say though, if I ever saw the guy in my town, I'd simply whip his ass...just on principle.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:46 pm
I like market forces for a lot of these kind of issues, as opposed to government decree, while I'm conflicted on this somewhat. TV does already have some variation related to time periods...

My dad was there at the start of commercials for tv, so I've a lifelong interest re commercials, while, oddly, I now don't have a tv, a complicated matter to explain, mostly to do with money re the choices I might want if I was to bother. A friend's ex makes super bowl commercials, or did, last I heard. This is to say that I can get behind a certain freespiritedness re commercials. However - I could be interested in that kind of rating of commercials mentioned earlier re aligning it in some way with the rating of program thing.

Alternately, as one of the older a2ker's, I lived with the Catholic Church's Legion of Decency and the Index. (eek, Voltaire!!, not kidding) and various pledges we made as a group in school or church. {{{{shudder}}}}

I do get Free Duck's point about expectations, and - as maybe the only a2ker to quibble about the Jackson-Timberlake boob expo, because it didn't fit into time slot expectations for parents I disagreed with about the problem. (If you follow my point, not the offense, but the lack of warning re timing, for the Very Concerned). Odd point of view for me, but related to expectations re tv times.

Well, I meant to make this short and have gone on rather long anyway.
I don't know, still listening.

Re CJane and Squinney and their children, the children's ages and controllability differ. Which would be true for families in general. I'm also not so sure how much I don't want a seventeen year old to see...
My niece and I talked about everything possible to talk about in time allotted when she was 11 - 13 - 15. She could lecture me now, at 19.

Still, if that was the old me at, say, sixteen, watching that commercial, if it was televised in the late fifties...

I dunno, I was still busy reading the Virginian for the sex scenes.

I guess I see it as invasive to adult or minor - right this minute - aside from the question of abuse of the young actors(actresses). But tv's voice has become invasive to me in general, so that is a little hard to separate.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:26 pm
Emotionalism and personal taste aside, I have yet to see a meritable, quantifiable, scientifically performed, long-term, unbiased study that clearly demonstrates consensual adult sexuality in the media causes real-world harm, as opposed to the clearly demonstrated real-world harm of censorship.

Don't like?
Don't watch!

What's next, no kissing in public?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:49 pm
It's not a program not to watch, Chumly, but a commercial that pops up within a program parents approve. Choice is essentially disabled. That is, no warning.

A commercial that has sexual play with the possibly underaged inebriated tucked in with a program geared at a tamer level is not playing fair.

But then I haven't seen it, so I'm querying from the sidelines.

I gather, Chumly, that you prefer no strictures at all? I don't say this to taunt, and I can imagine agreeing, though I don't. I think I just like my strictures to not be decreed from on high.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 12:33 am
2PacksAday wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/features/magazine/west/la-tm-gonewild32aug06,0,2664370.story

An article about Mr. Francis, it is lengthy folks.

I've never seen any of the GGW commercials early in the evening...late at night yes, on multiple channels...but if I did, I would not be happy about it.

Censorship...I don't even like the word, muchless the use of it, but I do not like "sleazy bastard" types either. So like a few others on this thread, I'm conflicted on the issue.

I will honestly say though, if I ever saw the guy in my town, I'd simply whip his ass...just on principle.


Well, at least I know 2Packs read it too! Smile Honestly I think the most important thing about this issue is the fact that Joe Francis just needs a freakin' huge ass-whipping. Of course, the simulated-sodomy-with-a-dildo that someone forced him to do on tape was kind of a good start...
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 12:34 am
ossobuco wrote:
It's not a program not to watch, Chumly, but a commercial that pops up within a program parents approve. Choice is essentially disabled. That is, no warning.

A commercial that has sexual play with the possibly underaged inebriated tucked in with a program geared at a tamer level is not playing fair.

But then I haven't seen it, so I'm querying from the sidelines.

I gather, Chumly, that you prefer no strictures at all? I don't say this to taunt, and I can imagine agreeing, though I don't. I think I just like my strictures to not be decreed from on high.
The keyboard in my laptop is messing up (XP does not like MS Word 97) so I can't respond; but I'll feed my dog (Daizey the Chow) toast while I watch "The Tailor of Panama".

I'm too lazy to boot up my desktop or dig out another laptop. I'm surprised I got to type this out without a mega-crash.

The Tailor of Panama
In Panama an unprincipled spy enlists a tailor to gather information about the canal for the British government, but the details soon become lies. Based on the book by John LeCarre.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 01:09 am
That's it. Le Carre' - I often have trouble actually finishing his books, snore, but generally appreciate them for whole sets of pages.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jan, 2007 10:08 am
I voted YES!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 12:57 pm
Yesterday I watched two episodes of Benny Hill, back to back. Slapstick comedy about old men going after young girls, grabbing breasts and butts, and there was even some nudity on the BBC station at 3 in the afternoon. It couldn't be less appropriate for children, right? Does anyone think this harmed some kids? I think not.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 01:47 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Yesterday I watched two episodes of Benny Hill, back to back. Slapstick comedy about old men going after young girls, grabbing breasts and butts, and there was even some nudity on the BBC station at 3 in the afternoon. It couldn't be less appropriate for children, right? Does anyone think this harmed some kids? I think not.


Yes, it could be less appropriate for children, O'Bill. Were I forced to choose whether to let my kids watch GGW or Benny Hill, I'd let them watch Benny Hill. But that doesn't mean it is appropriate. My kids won't watch either at their age.

It's difficult enough to raise children who are happy, healthy, and well-adjusted to begin with, and you want to advocate a daytime television free-for-all? (BTW: I'd really like to have this conversation with you after you have kids, to see if your perspective changes.)
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 01:55 pm
Well, something gave me an somewhat unhealthy self-image. Perhaps it was watching Benny Hill at a young age (joking here). Generally, I think that the women on Benny Hill were adult actresses rather than manipulated under-agers.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 02:04 pm
You are a good parent, Tico. But your statement proves you are prejudiced. The fact that you have children in no way gives you any more right to decide what I watch on TV. If you don't want your kids watching Benny Hill, then don't let them. But don't presume to tell me or anyone else that we can't watch Benny Hill. Do you see my point now? Government regulation is not the appropriate means to restrict your children's TV viewing.

LittleK, if the GGW programs, let alone commercials for same, contain underagers... than they are already illegal and no new law need to be enacted to prevent them from being shown. Further; I would encourage whoever prosecutes them for such an offense, to aim for the maximum punishment allowed by law. That, is an entirely different equation.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 02:06 pm
littlek wrote:
Well, something gave me an somewhat unhealthy self-image.
As I pointed out on Soz's backup site; there is nothing wrong with your image. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 02:23 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
You are a good parent, Tico. But your statement proves you are prejudiced.


Prejudiced against who? GGW?

I'm not prejudiced against non-parents, but I honestly believe you are clouded by some idealistic view that is not grounded in the realities of raising children.

Quote:
The fact that you have children in no way gives you any more right to decide what I watch on TV.


I don't give a crap on a cracker about what you decide to watch on TV, O'Bill. I hope you believe me when I say that.

Quote:
If you don't want your kids watching Benny Hill, then don't let them.


I don't think it's on here any more, but rest assured I won't. Until they're older, of course.

Quote:
But don't presume to tell me or anyone else that we can't watch Benny Hill. Do you see my point now? Government regulation is not the appropriate means to restrict your children's TV viewing.


Take a deep breath. Now, what did I say that lead you to the ridiculous conclusion that I have presumed to tell you or anyone else that you cannot watch Benny Hill or GGW?

You're taking an extreme position, O'Bill. I'm suggesting a reasonable restriction that has time and again been held to square with the US Constitution. And, yes, it does result in a position that values children's well-being over your right to see GGW commercials any time, day or night. I'm not going to lose any sleep over that value judgment.

I'm just waiting for you to suggest toy stores ought to feel free to put Hustler Magazines in their children's book section -- let the parents who allow their children to browse that aisle without looking over their shoulders beware.
0 Replies
 
 

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