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The other losing war

 
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2007 07:30 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Anybody notice the poll results at the top of the page? The consensus seems clear every time the subject comes up; so why is there no politician willing to go to bat for the will of the people?


It would be seen by those that oppose al drugs as an attempt to legalize all drugs instead of the ones that don't pose a threat. It woudn't matter if you put a big sign up that said POT ONLY FOR LEGALIZATION, it would still be painted as all drugs.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2007 07:58 am
I remember a time in high school when there were a bunch of us at a friend's parents' house and we were all heavily smoking pot. The house might as well have been on fire there was so much smoke.

We had been partying at the house pretty heavily for three weeks since the owners were on a two month European vacation and unwisely thought they could leave their house in the capable hands of their seventeen year old son.

After the first week there was not a trace of food left in the house with the exception of a few things that didn't appear edible.

My brother thought otherwise. On the particular night in question he stumbled to the kitchen in search of "munchies". Everyone told him that his search would be for naught, but he seemed determined, and, several minutes later he returned and was contentedly munching on a head of cabbage.

He ate the whole thing and said, "This **** aint half bad."
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2007 07:53 pm
"Look Ma, I'm eating my veggies!"
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 01:49 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
rabel22 wrote:
cyclo
What happens if a fed catches you. Took me 35 years to break my cig addiction. I've been free of it for 20 years and whenever I smell one I still want one.


My guess is that you go to jail if a Fed catches you. But that's exceedingly rare.

I hate the cigs, and love them.

Cycloptichorn


But that love is like trying to hug a porcupine.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 02:24 am
Baldimo wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Anybody notice the poll results at the top of the page? The consensus seems clear every time the subject comes up; so why is there no politician willing to go to bat for the will of the people?


It would be seen by those that oppose al drugs as an attempt to legalize all drugs instead of the ones that don't pose a threat. It woudn't matter if you put a big sign up that said POT ONLY FOR LEGALIZATION, it would still be painted as all drugs.
I may be alone; but that's fine with me. LEGALIZE THEM ALL. I don't require the government to protect me from me and would prefer it if they concentrated their efforts on protecting children. A man going to jail for selling to customers of every age loses his incentive to sell to kids if he can legally sell to adults. In the booze business; you routinely turn away good money from minors so as not to lose the privilege of selling to adults. Why would a bootlegger make this distinction? If my neighbor wants to blow his wad on Coke, trip his balls off, or poor gasoline over his head and light it after gambling with his favorite prostitutes; I don't have a problem with it. Not until his fist strikes my nose do I have a problem with him swinging it.

Legalize pot only? That should be a no-brainer.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 05:11 am
Agreed, Bill. It's time we stopped prosecuting victimless "crimes." The government is supposed to protect me from all enemies, domestic and foreign, not from myself. That's also my argument against mandatory seat belt use in cars.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 05:45 am
Yup. File them next to Wisconsin's Helmet Laws.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 08:48 am
Also, if it's legal, then you can enforce child labor laws. Hopefully, that would mean a lot of kids staying in school who otherwise wouldn't. With any luck, the violence associated with drug dealing would also diminish as corners turn to storefronts, which the law protects.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 09:29 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Also, if it's legal, then you can enforce child labor laws. Hopefully, that would mean a lot of kids staying in school who otherwise wouldn't. With any luck, the violence associated with drug dealing would also diminish as corners turn to storefronts, which the law protects.


Do you think making crack legal would end the violence that drug produces? It wouldn't. Just because its legal doesn't mean the prices will come down on something that someone can make at home for cheaper then they can buy it in the stores. Drug addicts would still be drug addicts and if they are broke drug addicts then I have to worry about me and mine.

In legalizing these drugs what kind of responsibility will the got face when it comes to people trying to kick a habit that they themselves got into. Is the govt going to have to care for these people and spend more money on clinics to help these addicts?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 12:46 pm
Baldimo wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Also, if it's legal, then you can enforce child labor laws. Hopefully, that would mean a lot of kids staying in school who otherwise wouldn't. With any luck, the violence associated with drug dealing would also diminish as corners turn to storefronts, which the law protects.


Do you think making crack legal would end the violence that drug produces? It wouldn't. Just because its legal doesn't mean the prices will come down on something that someone can make at home for cheaper then they can buy it in the stores. Drug addicts would still be drug addicts and if they are broke drug addicts then I have to worry about me and mine.

In legalizing these drugs what kind of responsibility will the got face when it comes to people trying to kick a habit that they themselves got into. Is the govt going to have to care for these people and spend more money on clinics to help these addicts?


I was speaking specifically of the violence associated with the sale of drugs -- all drugs. I'm speaking of turf wars, violence against police officers, etc...

I expect the violence related to drug USE to remain the same.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2007 01:27 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Also, if it's legal, then you can enforce child labor laws. Hopefully, that would mean a lot of kids staying in school who otherwise wouldn't. With any luck, the violence associated with drug dealing would also diminish as corners turn to storefronts, which the law protects.


Do you think making crack legal would end the violence that drug produces? It wouldn't. Just because its legal doesn't mean the prices will come down on something that someone can make at home for cheaper then they can buy it in the stores. Drug addicts would still be drug addicts and if they are broke drug addicts then I have to worry about me and mine.

In legalizing these drugs what kind of responsibility will the got face when it comes to people trying to kick a habit that they themselves got into. Is the govt going to have to care for these people and spend more money on clinics to help these addicts?


I was speaking specifically of the violence associated with the sale of drugs -- all drugs. I'm speaking of turf wars, violence against police officers, etc...

I expect the violence related to drug USE to remain the same.


I do think that type of violence will come to an end to but it will take a while. I think street pushers will still have a battle until legalization is fully and openly pushed. Don't expect them to give up without a fight, by using legalization we just put them out of business and I don't think that is going to go over well. We could encourge them to open bars for drug use and give them the ability to sell with govt permission. Just like a reg beer bar now.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:18 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Anybody notice the poll results at the top of the page? The consensus seems clear every time the subject comes up; so why is there no politician willing to go to bat for the will of the people?


Well, a A2K poll of some 20 or some people can hardly be considered a reflection of the will of the people. Although more people in Nevada voted to legalize pot than to legalize same sex marriage, they still were not in the majority.

I've not finished this thread so perhaps someone has provided a link, but to this point I don't believe I've ever seen a legitimate poll that suggests the majority of Americans are in favor of legalizing drug - not even only pot.

Drugs, including alcohol, are not particularly good for people, and so it is understandable why someone would be reluctant to cast a vote that seemed to be a declaration of support for drugs.

Our government (and let no one kid themselves that this is an issue which is affected by which political party holds power) is not about to give up the War of Drugs because

1) Very few politicians (and none with serious national aspirations) wants to give his or her opponents the loaded weapon of a position in favor of legalization
2) The War on Drugs is an industry. The billions spent on it are going into people's pockets - they don't want it to end anymore than do the drug cartels. What happens to the officials and agents of the DEA if the War comes to an end? They know it will never be "won." Anything who actually believes such an outcome is possible is either ignorant or out of touch with reality. The only way it will come to an end is if there is legalization, and if that occurs, a lot of people will be out of work and deprived of power.

I tried every drug available during the seventies and enjoyed them all. None of them, however, are worth the associated risks (which is to say the risks of arrest, incarceration and destruction of social status and means). If they were legal to today I would use some, just as I use the legal drug alcohol - with moderation.

As a society, we are almost as conflicted about drugs as we are about sex. What we are truly conflicted about is pleasure, and to some extent its understandable. Too much of anything is not good and it is always pleasure (whether in obvious or subtle manifestation) that drives us to excess.

What we should have is the freedom to choose any behavior or practice that does not harm others, within a society that promotes the virtues of moderation. We have neither.

We have a society that promotes the virtues of excess and a government that intrudes upon our personal freedoms.

Make no mistake though, the issue of legalizing drugs is not so self contained as some would believe or wish.

The more the State cares for the needs of its citizens, the more the State will contend it has a right to control the actions of its citizens.

The Left would have us living in some version of a collective state wherein the misfortunes of the few are born by all. It's not difficult to see the appeal of this notion. In a healthy, vibrant nation spreading the cost of caring for the unfortunate among the majority of the well off is not all that unreasonable. It's the way insurance works.

A well run collective society, however, cannot tolerate practices and behaviors that result in citizens requiring more from the State than they are able to contribute.

The collective is OK with covering for the unfortunate, but can it afford to cover for the self-destructive?

[Of course that is exactly what is happening with socialists states, but that is a discussion for another thread.]

No it cannot and so there is a fair argument for the State to step in and control personal behaviors which, while not having a direct negative impact on anyone, tax the resources of the collective (no pun intended).

As much as we all would like to, we cannot have our cake and eat it too --- at least not for very long.

If drugs are legalized, and they should be, some people will abuse them. If at the same time we want to live in a nation wherein the government (through our taxes) props up all of our human wrecks, then eventually we will find ourselves, as a nation, derailed.

The intellectually honest will appreciate that the principles which support legalization of drugs also demand limited government in all aspects of our lives. Any other take on it is just a call for the government to get out of the way of our hedonism.

Since States do not exist outside of the realm of our individual existence, it is just insane to believe we can ever have a society in which we are free to indulge in all of our appetites and still have the State pick up the tab.

In other words, the modern Liberal vision for America.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 02:19 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A well run collective society, however, cannot tolerate practices and behaviors that result in citizens requiring more from the State than they are able to contribute.

The collective is OK with covering for the unfortunate, but can it afford to cover for the self-destructive?

[Of course that is exactly what is happening with socialists states, but that is a discussion for another thread.]
To the extent this precaution needs to be thoroughly considered during any repeal of drug prohibition, I think it fits neatly into this thread. (Though "any" in the preceding sentence is overbroad, because if we just legalized pot I wouldn't predict our social safety nets being overrun as a result. :wink:)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 04:33 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A well run collective society, however, cannot tolerate practices and behaviors that result in citizens requiring more from the State than they are able to contribute.

The collective is OK with covering for the unfortunate, but can it afford to cover for the self-destructive?

[Of course that is exactly what is happening with socialists states, but that is a discussion for another thread.]
To the extent this precaution needs to be thoroughly considered during any repeal of drug prohibition, I think it fits neatly into this thread. (Though "any" in the preceding sentence is overbroad, because if we just legalized pot I wouldn't predict our social safety nets being overrun as a result. :wink:)


Why limit legalization to pot?

I know plenty of people whose lives have been ruined or diminshed because of excessive use of the pot. It is not a totally benign drug.

What is the argument for pot versus ecstasy or numerous perscription drugs? It's more popular?

I don't know that it's a so-called gatway drug, but if it is to any extent, then the fact that it is more benign than the drugs it leads to doesn't hold up well in terms of justifying its legalization.

In any case the point I made was not that the legalization of pot, or any and all drugs for that matter, will cripple our current health system or safety nets, but rather that the more we allow the State to care for our needs the greater the legitimacy it will have for intruding upon our personal freedoms.

Drugs are already illegal, and one of the arguments made against legalization is that their sale, possession and usage are not victimless crimes. Proponents of the War on Drugs constantly argue that even if the user is not considered a victim, Society is.

It is the same argument made by the States Attornies General in their litigation against tobacco companies. It is the same argument advanced by Mayor Bloomberg in outlawing trans-fat usage in NYC resteraunts.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 05:15 pm
anyone remember "operation just cause" - the invasion of panama ?
i seem to recall the american people - and even the people of the world - were told by president bush , senior , that once noriega was removed from power , the war on drugs would be complete . noriega would be locked up and no more drugs would enter the united states .



...UNITED STATES INVADES PANAMA...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 05:21 pm
anyone remember "operation just cause" - the invasion of panama ?
i seem to recall the american people - and even the people of the world - were told by president bush , senior , that once noriega was removed from power , the war on drugs would be complete . noriega would be locked up and no more drugs would enter the united states .

noriega has now been locked up for a number of years ... and the drug traffic into the united states does not seem to have suffered .
perhaps another "operation just cause" would make for good PR ?
hbg


source :
...UNITED STATES INVADES PANAMA...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 07:27 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A well run collective society, however, cannot tolerate practices and behaviors that result in citizens requiring more from the State than they are able to contribute.

The collective is OK with covering for the unfortunate, but can it afford to cover for the self-destructive?

[Of course that is exactly what is happening with socialists states, but that is a discussion for another thread.]
To the extent this precaution needs to be thoroughly considered during any repeal of drug prohibition, I think it fits neatly into this thread. (Though "any" in the preceding sentence is overbroad, because if we just legalized pot I wouldn't predict our social safety nets being overrun as a result. :wink:)


Why limit legalization to pot?
You must not have read back; I wouldn't.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I know plenty of people whose lives have been ruined or diminshed because of excessive use of the pot. It is not a totally benign drug.

What is the argument for pot versus ecstasy or numerous perscription drugs? It's more popular?
Totally benign? No. But it actually causes little health damage and most of the victims of same aren't waiting for the law to change anyway.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't know that it's a so-called gatway drug, but if it is to any extent, then the fact that it is more benign than the drugs it leads to doesn't hold up well in terms of justifying its legalization.
Sure it does. To the extent it's a gateway drug, it is so only because it's in that scary category--> Shocked"DRUGS"Shocked

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
In any case the point I made was not that the legalization of pot, or any and all drugs for that matter, will cripple our current health system or safety nets, but rather that the more we allow the State to care for our needs the greater the legitimacy it will have for intruding upon our personal freedoms.

Drugs are already illegal, and one of the arguments made against legalization is that their sale, possession and usage are not victimless crimes. Proponents of the War on Drugs constantly argue that even if the user is not considered a victim, Society is.

It is the same argument made by the States Attornies General in their litigation against tobacco companies. It is the same argument advanced by Mayor Bloomberg in outlawing trans-fat usage in NYC resteraunts.
I don't buy the counter-argument at all. Once legal; they are Taxable... and the proceeds from a stiff "Idiot Tax" could easily offset the added burden while freeing up countless thousands of cops to go solve some actual crime.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 11:01 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A well run collective society, however, cannot tolerate practices and behaviors that result in citizens requiring more from the State than they are able to contribute.

The collective is OK with covering for the unfortunate, but can it afford to cover for the self-destructive?

[Of course that is exactly what is happening with socialists states, but that is a discussion for another thread.]
To the extent this precaution needs to be thoroughly considered during any repeal of drug prohibition, I think it fits neatly into this thread. (Though "any" in the preceding sentence is overbroad, because if we just legalized pot I wouldn't predict our social safety nets being overrun as a result. :wink:)


Why limit legalization to pot?
You must not have read back; I wouldn't.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I know plenty of people whose lives have been ruined or diminshed because of excessive use of the pot. It is not a totally benign drug.

What is the argument for pot versus ecstasy or numerous perscription drugs? It's more popular?
Totally benign? No. But it actually causes little health damage and most of the victims of same aren't waiting for the law to change anyway.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't know that it's a so-called gatway drug, but if it is to any extent, then the fact that it is more benign than the drugs it leads to doesn't hold up well in terms of justifying its legalization.
Sure it does. To the extent it's a gateway drug, it is so only because it's in that scary category--> Shocked"DRUGS"Shocked

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
In any case the point I made was not that the legalization of pot, or any and all drugs for that matter, will cripple our current health system or safety nets, but rather that the more we allow the State to care for our needs the greater the legitimacy it will have for intruding upon our personal freedoms.

Drugs are already illegal, and one of the arguments made against legalization is that their sale, possession and usage are not victimless crimes. Proponents of the War on Drugs constantly argue that even if the user is not considered a victim, Society is.

It is the same argument made by the States Attornies General in their litigation against tobacco companies. It is the same argument advanced by Mayor Bloomberg in outlawing trans-fat usage in NYC resteraunts.
I don't buy the counter-argument at all. Once legal; they are Taxable... and the proceeds from a stiff "Idiot Tax" could easily offset the added burden while freeing up countless thousands of cops to go solve some actual crime.


I've seen studies that show that Marijuana is the biggest cash crop in the Pacific NW, by far! And all that going untaxed. What a shame.

Given that:

-prohibition of Marijuana costs mucho $$$ every year out of the tax pool;

AND

-prohibition of Marijuana doesn't actually stop anyone from GETTING marijuana;

then

-wouldn't it be far smarter to regulate and tax marijuana than to spend money trying to stop people from doing something they are going to do anyways?

I don't buy Finn's bullsh*t about people ruining their lives with pot for a second. I understand that he probably knows people whose lives were going down a bad path who ALSO smoked pot, but to blame their ruined lives on it?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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