Olde English or not ?

Well fecit is latin it means basically made in, so it was made in the city of York, which was already obvious. Pafsinge...hmm, it could be the maker's name? It's strange though, because it has never been written on the internet, and I would expect that of any word or name. Perhaps you read it incorrectly. "Paf le singe" means "Bam, the monkey!" in French. 16 probably means it is the 16th unit made, and 73 is probably referring to the year; so 1873.

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stuh505 wrote:

Well fecit is latin it means basically made in, so it was made in the city of York, which was already obvious. Pafsinge...hmm, it could be the maker's name? It's strange though, because it has never been written on the internet, and I would expect that of any word or name. Perhaps you read it incorrectly. "Paf le singe" means "Bam, the monkey!" in French.

In "olde worlde" written English, the letter "s" was shaped like a long "f", so "pafsinge" is actually "passing".

These clocks sometimes had little mottos on them, such as "Tyme is ever Pafsinge". (See linked example.)

For more possible clues....see

This item and its description.

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I'm not a language expert but modern English would be well established by the late 19th century, no?

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From the linked item, it would appear that the seller thinks that "1690" (when that particular clock was made, it would appear) was somehow in the 19th Century!

His/her description......

"This is an excellent & rare 19th century Oak & Brass water clock with all parts intact. It is engraved to the brass faceplate at the base 'J Baird Fecit Wakefield 1690'. ..."

If Tacuma's clock is the genuine article, it could be very old indeed.

I think it needs an expert appraisal, myself.

Tacuma's "16 - Pafsinge shades- 73".....could actually mean 1673?

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These are guesses

16 - Pafsinge shades- 73; Possibly means the year 1673, "Passing shades" possibly denotes the season or time of year the clock was manufactured.

?Long shadows? or is perhaps as elphus said some kind of mottow or homily that escapes us in the present day.

Only an experienced collector/dealer will be able to autenticate this.

Christie's or Southebys are well known and reputable dealers. There are others I am sure.

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/dept/DeptSpecialists.jsp?dept_id=44

http://www.christies.com/departments/clk/overview.asp

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It would appear that water clocks were the way to go, up until the 17th Century......

From Wikipedia....

".......Through the centuries, water clocks were used for timing lawyer's speeches during a trial, labors of prostitutes, night watches of guards, sermons and Masses in church, to name only a few. While never reaching the level of accuracy based on today's standards of timekeeping, the water clock was the most accurate and commonly used timekeeping device for millennia, until it was replaced by the more accurate pendulum clock in the 17th century..........."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_clock

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Charlotte Bronte
Villette
(excerpt from chapter 12)

Finely accomplished as she was in the art of surveillance, it was next to impossible that a casket could be thrown into her garden, or an interloper could cross her walks to seek it, without that she, in shaken branch, passing shade, unwonted footfall, or stilly murmur (and though Dr. John had spoken very low in the few words he dropped me, yet the hum of his man's voice pervaded, I thought, the whole conventual ground) - without, I say, that she should have caught intimation of things extraordinary transpiring on her premises.

---------------------

usage of the phrase here would indicate a shadow.

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dadpad, I like your intuition here. This may help to explain the dashes, if it is the format for a date.

day - month - year

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Two things bother me about this inscription.

Firstly, to say that a clock has been made OF a place makes no sense. A genuine 17th-century clockmaker would have written "fecit in", not "of". It's quite possible that the seller has misread/mistyped the inscription, but if it really says "fecit of", that's not good.

Secondly, "ye towne YORK" is very fishy indeed. York is not a town; it is a city - for more than a thousand years it was the second city in England, and proud of it. I can't imagine a York craftsman putting that on his products. He would either say "ye Citie of York" or just "York", on the grounds that everybody in the entire world knows where and what York is.

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Thanks for your opinions. I will assume that it is a reproduction. BTW is it not Grimsby which is fishy and not York ? Very Happy

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syntinen wrote:

Two things bother me about this inscription.

Firstly, to say that a clock has been made OF a place makes no sense. A genuine 17th-century clockmaker would have written "fecit in", not "of". It's quite possible that the seller has misread/mistyped the inscription, but if it really says "fecit of", that's not good.

Secondly, "ye towne YORK" is very fishy indeed. York is not a town; it is a city - for more than a thousand years it was the second city in England, and proud of it. I can't imagine a York craftsman putting that on his products. He would either say "ye Citie of York" or just "York", on the grounds that everybody in the entire world knows where and what York is.

Look, I know NOTHING about history, and even less about geography (yes, that means I know negative geography)...but the things that bother you do not make much sense to me.

First of all, language is an evolving thing, and of/in are pretty similar words, and this was presumably written a long time ago. So I don't find that surprising at all. Also it was presumably made by a craftsman who may not have gotten the best of educations. If, on the other hand, it is a reproduction, then any such inscription would likely be a faithful copy of the original inscription...or else an entirely new modern inscription describing who reproduced it. And finally, if it were a complete forgery, well forgers are usually very good at what they do, because they are making money by forging antiques, so I find it hard to believe that they would make a dumb grammar error, or be unfamiliar with the dialogue of the times, considering that they must be somewhat of a historian to be reproducing fake historical pieces to begin with.

Now onto your second qualm: the town of York. Well, like I said I know not much about geography or history, but I have heard of a place called Yorktown and I also believe there is a Town of York, there is also a York, and a New York, and possibly more, and any one of these that is now a city would have started out as a town at one time.

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Quote:

Secondly, "ye towne YORK" is very fishy indeed. York is not a town; it is a city

I"m taking a carraige to London town.

the "town" of york may be a local reference to the "city center".

in any event I wouldnt assume it was a fake. What i would do is get some opinions on it from people I trust.

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Tacuma wrote:

Thanks for your opinions. I will assume that it is a reproduction. BTW is it not Grimsby which is fishy and not York ?

NO! Don't assume it's a repro, as it might easily be the genuine thing.

Check it out with a reputable auctioneer, some of whom will let you send them a photo or two by email so they can make an initial assessment.

Sotheby's? Christies?

It's worth a go, anyway, IMO.

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"Fecit" was used very widely on artefacts, e.g. "George Brown fecit", "fecit 1668", "fecit Norwich 1730", and so on. A craftsman might not have known how to parse it, or even that it was Latin, but he'd know that it meant "made". Just as you wouldn't write "made of [place name]", you wouldn't write "fecit of [place name]".

Quote:

forgers are usually very good at what they do, because they are making money by forging antiques, so I find it hard to believe that they would make a dumb grammar error, or be unfamiliar with the dialogue of the times.

But it happens. I've seen several examples of physically perfect fakes spoiled by a mistake in the inscription. It's not unusual, because the fakers are mostly craftsmen, not historians. They have looked at the objects, handled the objects, know how to make the objects - but they haven't immersed themselves in the language, environment and way of life of the makers of the originals.

Certainly no clock made in the English city would be inscribed "ye towne York". Nice try, dadpad, suggesting that "town" meant "city centre" but actually the opposite is true - in old English cities it is precisely the centre, the part inside the city walls, that is the true "city". And "London town" is a figure of speech for songs and nursery rhymes, not commerce.

But I confess that I hadn't considered the possibility of its being made in a colonial town called York. Anybody here know whether clocks were even being made in the American colonies in the 1690s, and if so, where?

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Water Clocks
There seems to be more than one of these. Ebay 330077242234

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Re: Water Clocks

Tacuma wrote:

There seems to be more than one of these. Ebay 330077242234

If it IS indeed 19th Century, as the seller states, then there's a good chance that there would be more than one, as mass manufacture was just about up and running by then.

If yours looks like the Ebay one, I would just "watch" (no pun intended) that item and see how much it fetches.
Normally, there are knowledgeable people scrambling all over the antiques on Ebay, looking for a bargain. I'll bet that there are quite a few that have tagged this one, and that it will probably fetch around about the correct price.

If it IS pretty rare, you can expect an almighty flurry of activity on the bidding in the last few hours of the auction.

Just under three days to go.....should be interesting.

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Mind you, the seller also has a "Smiths" Station clock that finishes at exactly the same time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that fetches more.

Here.....

Smiths clocks were made in London (Hendon/Cricklewood), and my Mum worked there as a teenager, during WW2.
They stopped making clocks during a fair part of the war, and my Mum was assigned to making delay timers for various munitions.
This was very fiddly work, with tiny mechanised parts to be assembled and she invarioubly ended up with a splitting headache at the end of her shift.

She always maintains that it was this that ruined her eyesight.....

I would LOVE a Smiths station clock on my wall. It's instantly recognisable by any train travelling Brit over the age of forty, I reckon.

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Olde English or not ?

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