More from the lunatic fringe

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Obviously, Baldimo, you neither lived then nor read a lot about the anti-Vietnam protesters.

Have read quite a lot about the time frame but being born in 73 kind of takes the personal touch out of it. My parents on the other hand have told me plenty and as I said before I have read quite a lot about the time.

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Well, it might have been different in the USA and to what I've read about it, in those days as well at the history faculty.

At least, when we demonstrated against the war, no-one of us thought to be a hippie nor was considered to be one by others.

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Baldimo wrote:

...In another thread Drewdad said we should just stay out of their lives and we wouldn't have to worry about terrorists attacking the US. ...

I dearly hope that you understand your orders better than you understand what's written on this message board....

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Someone's been inhaling again.

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DrewDad wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
...In another thread Drewdad said we should just stay out of their lives and we wouldn't have to worry about terrorists attacking the US. ...

I dearly hope that you understand your orders better than you understand what's written on this message board....

Sorry Drewdad, that was a quote from Revel. My bad.

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Baldimo wrote:

Sorry Drewdad, that was a quote from Revel. My bad.

No problem. On re-reading, I came across as rather snotty; my apologies.

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baldimo :
if you are interested in the relations between the united states of america and vietnam , you might be interested to read to address given by the u.s. ambassador to vietnam in - of all places - HO CI MINH CITY !
hbg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remarks by Ambassador Michael W. Marine
The United States and Vietnam:
Vision for an Evolving Relationship
Ho Chi Minh City, September 20, 2006

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. As I hope you all already know, the United States and Vietnam have developed a close partnership and a growing friendship in the past eleven years since the normalization of diplomatic relations. Today, after serving as U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam for just over two years, I would like to take a moment to examine the current state of our bilateral relations and outline what I see as bright prospects for the further development and deepening of our ties.

Last year, we heralded the tenth anniversary of the normalization of relations. The anniversary itself was celebrated by both countries as an important milestone, not due to the passage of time, but rather because of the significant and often startling progress we have made so many areas. No one can deny that we have come a long way, from that halting beginning to the rich panoply of shared interests we enjoy today. Just take the last 15 months, for example! In mid-2005, then Prime Minister Phan Van Khai made his historic and very successful trip to the United States. Since that visit, the U.S. Secretaries of Defense, Health and Human Services, Treasury and Veterans Affairs, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and the new U.S. Trade Representative, as well as the Commander of the U.S. Pacific Command and hundreds of other U.S. Government visitors, have come to Vietnam for meetings with their counterparts. Senior Vietnamese Government officials have also been traveling in the opposite direction, most recently Minister of Health Madam Tran Thi Trung Chien. This high level of interaction and dialogue will continue, culminating in President George W. Bush's visit to Vietnam this fall for the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Leaders Meeting.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

would be unreasonable to assume that if the united states withdrew from iraq now , a u.s. ambassador to iraq might in a few years say :

" Last year, we heralded the tenth anniversary of the normalization of relations. The anniversary itself was celebrated by both countries as an important milestone, not due to the passage of time, but rather because of the significant and often startling progress we have made so many areas."

Question

might he make a comparison between president bush' visit to vietnam and a visit by another u.s. president to an independent iraq Question

would this not prove that "the pen is mightier than the sword" Question

U.S. EMBASSY IN VIETNAM

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hamburger wrote:

would be unreasonable to assume that if the united states withdrew from iraq now , a u.s. ambassador to iraq might in a few years say :

" Last year, we heralded the tenth anniversary of the normalization of relations. The anniversary itself was celebrated by both countries as an important milestone, not due to the passage of time, but rather because of the significant and often startling progress we have made so many areas."

might he make a comparison between president bush' visit to vietnam and a visit by another u.s. president to an independent iraq

would this not prove that "the pen is mightier than the sword"

I dont know if you are being deeply ironic here Hamburger. The way things are going in Baghdad (today 10 hour battle, air strikes on Sunni areas of Baghdad, sophisticated strike retreat/sniper stike tactics by insurgents etc)

I would think the US President in ten years time, making a visit to a heavily fortified patch of desert west of Baghdad will say just 50,000 more troops and one more push and the rubble can finally be cleared of terrorists.

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McGentrix's "lunatic fringe" that is upset at the manner in which Saddam Hussein was executed seems to stretch quite far into US ally territory.

Like, first British Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott ("deplorable", "should be ashamed"); then Gordon Brown, British Chancellor and Tony Blair's almost certain successor ("a deplorable set of events", "completely unacceptable") - and right after that (see second article), through his spokespersons, Tony Blair himself ("completely wrong").

Oh, and add Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt ("very shocking"), Trade and industry minister Margaret Hodge ("abhorred"), the Conservative Party's Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth ("an abomination").

The British government, the Conservative opposition - all part of the "lunatic fringe", in McGentrix's world.

Quote:

Brown 'deplores' death of Saddam

The Scotsman

GORDON Brown has placed himself at odds with Tony Blair by labelling the execution of Saddam Hussein "deplorable".

[T]he Chancellor criticised the conduct of witnesses during Saddam's last seconds after they taunted him and filmed his death on a mobile phone. [..]

Brown has offered an outspoken verdict on the execution last week, echoing Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott's criticism of the event.

In an interview for this morning's Sunday AM on BBC1, the Chancellor said: "Now that we know the full picture of what happened, we can sum this up as a deplorable set of events.

"It is something, of course, which the Iraqi Government has now expressed its anxiety and shame at. It has done nothing to lessen tensions between the Shia and Sunni communities. Even those people, unlike me, who are in favour of capital punishment found this completely unacceptable, and I am pleased that there is now an inquiry into this and I hope lessons in this area will be learnt, as we learn other lessons about Iraq." [..]

The Prime Minister will now face pressure in the wake of Brown's comments and is likely to be brow-beaten over the affair during Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday. [..]

Blair said he would speak this week about "all those other issues". On a tour of a heart hospital in London last week, he said: "I'll find a way to talk about it, but not today."

Quote:

Tony Blair: Saddam Hussein hanging was 'completely wrong'

07/01/2007

Prime Minister Tony Blair believes that the way in which former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein was executed was "completely wrong", Downing Street said today.

Mr Blair will make his view on the execution clear in public comments over the coming week and will confirm his support for the Iraqi Government's investigation into how scenes of Saddam being taunted came to be filmed and broadcast.

The insight into the PM's thinking came after Chancellor Gordon Brown used a TV interview to denounce the manner of Saddam's death as "deplorable" and "completely unacceptable". [..]

Downing Street today declined to confirm precisely when Mr Blair would make his comments on Saddam's hanging or whether they would come in a speech or a statement.

And a spokeswoman made clear that the exact terms of his comments would not be made public in advance.

But she added: "In terms of what he will say next week, we don't think there are going to be any surprises on where he stands.

"He supports the inquiry by the Iraqi authorities. He does believe that the manner of execution was completely wrong, but this shouldn't lead us to forget the crimes that Saddam committed, including the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis."

Mr Brown's denunciation of Saddam's hanging echoed the comments of Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, who last week said that the way it was done was "deplorable" and those responsible should be "ashamed".

Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt also today added her voice to the criticisms of the conduct of those responsible, describing the treatment of Saddam before his hanging was "very shocking".

Their comments added to the pressure on Mr Blair to make his views known. [..]

Trade and industry minister Margaret Hodge said she "abhorred" the way in which Saddam was killed.

She told Sunday Live on Sky News: "I am one of those who oppose capital punishment.

"We all abhor the way in which that capital punishment was executed, but I think it is the capital punishment that is the key issue and somehow we do get diverted from that onto other issues."

Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth said the manner in which Saddam was hanged was an "abomination".

He said: "It was the most deplorable act guaranteed to create even more tensions and hostility in an already very explosive area.

"It was an abomination and Tony Blair should have said that straight away."

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On the other hand, I'm completely fine with McG adopting this particular thread title for any further threads he starts...

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DrewDad wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
Sorry Drewdad, that was a quote from Revel. My bad.

No problem. On re-reading, I came across as rather snotty; my apologies.

you little bugger you

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So, why are you bringing up such a lunatic subject?

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steve :
no , i don't really want to be ironic - even thogh the story might be seen as such .
i find it amazing/interesting that some people are still fighting the vietnam war when the united states has not only made peace with vietnam but enjoys pretty good relations with vietnam .
if even president bush visits vietnam - and his ambassador praises the relations between the two countries - i would think people would realize that the war is over .
perhaps i'm trying to stretch things a bit , but if i recall rightly , vietnam was a much bloodier war for the americans than the 'conflict/civil war' in iraq .
so i don't see why one can not learn from the experience of the vietnam war - and perhaps say ; "enough , already !" .
what's to stop the united states government from ending the war in iraq Question

is there really that much fear of iraq in the u.s. that this war must be continued ?
if that would have been the thinking of the u.s. government re. vietnam , there probably would still be no peace - and many more americans and vietnamese would have been killed .
can nothing be learned from the vietnam experience ?
namely , that peace can be made and that nations who were deadly enemies can work together .
hbg

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Its official - Tony Blair is part of the "lunatic fringe".

Quote:

Blair breaks silence to condemn manner of Saddam hanging

Wednesday January 10, 2007
The Guardian

Tony Blair last night broke his 11-day silence on Saddam Hussein's execution by acknowledging that the manner of his death was "completely wrong". [..] Until last night Mr Blair had refused to comment on the execution, despite a chorus from senior ministers, including the deputy prime minister, John Prescott, and the chancellor, Gordon Brown, who both condemned the filming of the event as deplorable. [..]

Blair said last night: "As has been very obvious from the comments of other ministers and indeed from my own official spokesman, the manner of the execution of Saddam was completely wrong. But that should not blind us to the crimes he committed against his own people [..] the crimes that Saddam committed does not excuse the manner of his execution but the manner of his execution does not excuse the crimes." [..]

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hamburger wrote:

steve :
no , i don't really want to be ironic - even thogh the story might be seen as such .
i find it amazing/interesting that some people are still fighting the vietnam war when the united states has not only made peace with vietnam but enjoys pretty good relations with vietnam .
if even president bush visits vietnam - and his ambassador praises the relations between the two countries - i would think people would realize that the war is over .
perhaps i'm trying to stretch things a bit , but if i recall rightly , vietnam was a much bloodier war for the americans than the 'conflict/civil war' in iraq .
so i don't see why one can not learn from the experience of the vietnam war - and perhaps say ; "enough , already !" .
what's to stop the united states government from ending the war in iraq
is there really that much fear of iraq in the u.s. that this war must be continued ?
if that would have been the thinking of the u.s. government re. vietnam , there probably would still be no peace - and many more americans and vietnamese would have been killed .
can nothing be learned from the vietnam experience ?
namely , that peace can be made and that nations who were deadly enemies can work together .
hbg

Its certainly true that bitter enemies can become friends. Germany/france for example. But whats going on in Iraq is not like Vietnam. You dont have North vs South. People talk about the "War in Iraq" but thats sloppy thinking imo. Its a fight stemming from an unsuccessful occupation and the resulting struggle with insurgency and fractionalism that it has caused.

Sending a few more troops wont retrieve the situation either. Bush lost it just at his moment of triumph on board the aircraft carrier beneath the banner mission accomplished. American troops were in Baghdad but instead of cleaning out the swimming pools and getting BBQs organised, they should have worked hard to demonstrate they weren't there just to take control of the oil fields. Instead they relaxed and allowed Sunnis Ba'athists and radical Islamists to come together to form a particularly deadly insurgency. After hubris, nemesis.

Now American war aims are horribly exposed. You can't hold the cities and major towns where the bulk of Iraqis live, so let them fight it out. Who cares anyway? You have control of the oil fields, and an Oil Protection Force of 150,000 is enough.

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steve :
are you saying that the united states can do nothing at all to bring at least a semblance of peace and order to iraq ?
i find it interesting that iraqi president malaki recently visited iran and -yesterday , i believe - arrived in syria to hold discussions with the syrian leadership .
at the same time the united states tries to heap more blame for the problems in iraq on those other two countries .
surely , the united states has nothing to loose by engaging iran and syria in discussions about iraq .
they would perhaps even be better off trying to engage the UN or some other inter-mediary in such discussions .
from what i understand , most iraquis want the bloodshed to stop - they want to be able to walk about and do their daily work - trying to flatten baghdad hardly seems like a reasonable way to achieve that .
i hear all this talk of bringing "democracy" to iraq ; there won't be many iraqis left to enjoy democracy if the present path is being followed much longer .
i understand that many iraqis have left iraq in the meantime - so will there be anything left ?
but what do i know , i'm not in iraq .
hbg

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hamburger wrote:

steve :
are you saying that the united states can do nothing at all to bring at least a semblance of peace and order to iraq ?

I fear so. I think they will retreat to hold the bits of Iraq they were always interested in.

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