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Bush Supporters are Intellectually and Morally Compromised

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 11:58 am
edgarblythe wrote:
I can't see snood being in trouble here. All he did was state the truth as he sees it, re politics. Not an assault in the personal sense.

Seems that way to me ... I may not agree with the premise, but I don't have any problem with the manner in which it was presented.

snood wrote:
... I can also respect someone with whom I deeply disagree, if I think that they are moved to their beliefs by their convictions.

Ditto and ditto ... provided, of course, that discussions of points of disagreement do not themselves become disagreeable but rather remain within the bounds of civility.

Quote:
... happy goldanged New Year.

Ditto ditto and ditto - all the way around.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 12:02 pm
and a happy new year to you timber... and snood o'course...you too Tico, I hope you find a really nice cigar to suck on at midnight.... Razz
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 12:20 pm
snood wrote:
I am willing to concede to your point about it perhaps being in bad taste to mention individuals, if you are willing to concede to me that the issue is grave enough, and the ideologies disparate enough to produce in me a need to raise the question.

In other words, I would ask you Brandon, and others whose screen names I used to take this as you did - for the most part... as an opportunity to say clearly why you are supporting the views you support. This war - this particular war in Iraq - has never been a good idea to me.

I said I can respect someone who says they are wrong. But I think I can also respect someone with whom I deeply disagree, if I think that they are moved to their beliefs by their convictions.

Thanks for your answer, and happy goldanged New Year.

The issue is very grave indeed, because the next president, when faced with an imperialistic dictator who appears to be developing WMD, may be cowed by the enmity directed at Mr. Bush during this affair to do the easy thing rather than the right thing, and continue with ineffective diplomacy while the dictator perfects his doomsday weapons. If you think the Iraq war is trouble, just wait until you witness nuclear terrorism run amok. This is why the invasion was correct in the first place. It was simply unclear whether Saddam Hussein had abandoned his WMD development programs or merely taken them further underground. Remaining in Iraq now is the right thing to do, because it would be wrong to abandon the fledgling democratic government there to anti-democratic fanatics, including Al Qaeda. It now seems clear that Saddam Hussein was suppressing the factional violence only by ruling with an iron, dictatorial fist, and had he not been a ruthless, amoral dictator, it would have broken out long ago.

Happy New Year. The wife is asking me to take her to the store to buy supplies for her cooking, so I'm out of here.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 08:04 pm
Re: Bush Supporters are Intellectually and Morally Compromis
I have no objection to being named as an example when accurate. Calling me out by accusing me of moral or intellectual bankruptcy for positions I don't hold, however, is tedious. While it's true I supported the war and continue to stand by my reasons for doing so; no parallel can or should be drawn from this to assume that I also support George Bush... or even his reasons for the war. This is Snood's own intellectual dishonesty on display, for all to see. I'm going to go ahead and assume, Snood, that your passion and genuine feelings of disgust for George Bush and the war in Iraq is the catalyst and that your over inclusive Non Sequitur is the product of anger... rather than some heart-felt belief about me. To date; I've found my politics to be a cookie-cutter of no one else's and have both agreed and disagreed, strenuously, with virtually every poster I regularly converse with... and every single politician I've evaluated to any real degree.

A fan of George Bush, I am not. In 2004, IMO, he merely represented the lesser of two evils. He's wrong, IMO, about everything from stem cell research to global warming... from abortion to the Death Tax... and I have frequently opined accordingly. Contrarily; like Brandon, I've wanted Saddam brought down since Bush senior failed to bring it about and to this day view Clinton with a degree of disdain for his failure to adequately address Saddam's actions throughout the 90's and especially in 1998. In as much as George Bush set out to do work I honestly believe needed and still needs doing, yes, he has my support. Construing this to mean I am irrationally following the direction of our third rate would-be Czar, or that I've forfeited my intellectual or moral integrity in my blind loyalty to same is as childish as it is patently false, and frankly; a pretty crappy argument on your part.

While you lay awake at night wondering in disbelief how any reasonably intelligent being could fail to recognize the futility in Bush's war and post with such obvious disregard for the plight of the American Soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike and how they must be intellectually and/or morally bankrupt; I can't imagine for the life of me how anyone could have been satisfied with the status quo in Iraq... and dozens of places like it. While you consider words like freedom and democracy as meaningless propaganda (in regards to Iraq) for the purpose of misleading the ignorant war-mongering masses; I wonder how any American could fail to see the bigger picture. While you ponder in disgust the 3,000 Americans thus far killed in this feckless pursuit; I stand in awe of their courage and the inherent righteousness of purpose as well as their collective willingness to unselfishly risk their lives that others may live better, more fulfilling lives. I consider the 80% of pre-war defacto second rate citizens who suffered in tyranny not unlike apartheid in Iraq. I wonder how anyone who's vote controls the most powerful entity mankind has ever known (the U.S.), can complacently desire it to turn the blind eye to savagery and the near hopeless plight of millions of his fellow humans, everywhere.

I maintain that ability to effect change carries the burdensome, righteous responsibility to do so. You've read my numerous analogies comparing the bystanders during a rape to the desire to have the world's only superpower stand idle while millions, if not billions, of people continue to be victimized be the tyranny of totalitarian governance. Not only do I consider the goal of a democratic Iraq to be noble; I consider it a near meaningless beginning if we were to stop there. Until every oppressed people are freed from the chains of tyranny; the United States (as the world's most powerful nation) will continue to carry a disproportionate burden of guilt for our collective apathy to the plight of our fellow man.

Circling back to Iraq in particular, at this late date and in consideration of what Iran likely has in store for Iraq's citizenry if we were to abandon them now; my thoughts are not limited to the immediate future of Iraqi civilians and our soldiers alike. I can not dismiss the knowledge that 5 million or so Iraqi little girls age 14 and under would likely be sacrificed to a life of second class citizenry and in too many ways; slavery. I am not suggesting this can be easily or quickly changed… and I can not even honestly claim confidence that the endeavor will result in success. Of course I realize that even a successful democracy could easily vote in the very evil I wish to oppose. However, a lack of easy solutions in no way obscures the, IMO, clear righteousness of the cause. If I look out my window and see 3 perps in the act of rape, despite knowing I'd be over-matched and my chances of successful interference low, I would nonetheless feel compelled to try. So would you. On the global scale; millions, if not billions of lives hang in the balance. If the most powerful entity mankind has ever known doesn't attempt to effect change; who will?

I can't know if George Bush gives a rat's a$$ about the plight of the afore mentioned millions… and moreover; it doesn't really matter. Insofar as his actions serve a parallel purpose to my own, he'll continue to enjoy my support in the endeavor. Frankly, he's entirely too dove-ish for my purposes, and seems entirely too narrow minded in purpose. I can only assume better leadership would be better able to speed the pace of human evolution towards a more comprehensive solution for the oppressed millions everywhere… and I hope one day to campaign for just such a leader. In the mean time; George Bush seemed several steps closer to my ideal than did John Kerry, so I voted accordingly. You should be able to understand this without resorting to idiotic suggestions that those who oppose your politics could only do so out of ignorance, a lack of intellectual or moral integrity, or blind adherence to the principles or lack thereof of the current administration.

While it is certainly fair to paint me as unrealistic or misguided in your assessments, it is patently unfair to suggest that I've arrived at my conclusions out of intellectual or moral bankruptcy or, more ridiculous still; out of some unrelenting loyalty to a President I generally regard as incompetent. That sir, is demonstrative of an utter lack of intellectual integrity.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 08:15 pm
Nice.

As Jim Rome would say, "Rack him."
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 09:41 pm
Re: Bush Supporters are Intellectually and Morally Compromis
O'Bill:

Quote:
I have no objection to being named as an example when accurate. Calling me out by accusing me of moral or intellectual bankruptcy for positions I don't hold, however, is tedious. While it's true I supported the war and continue to stand by my reasons for doing so; no parallel can or should be drawn from this to assume that I also support George Bush... or even his reasons for the war. This is Snood's own intellectual dishonesty on display, for all to see. I'm going to go ahead and assume, Snood, that your passion and genuine feelings of disgust for George Bush and the war in Iraq is the catalyst and that your over inclusive Non Sequitur is the product of anger... rather than some heart-felt belief about me. To date; I've found my politics to be a cookie-cutter of no one else's and have both agreed and disagreed, strenuously, with virtually every poster I regularly converse with... and every single politician I've evaluated to any real degree.


You're right in that your expressed opinions, as I've experienced them, have seemed to be more the result of individual thought than blind following. The truth of my indictments were relative in degree, IMO, for each person I named. I apologize if I painted you into too broad a picture.

Quote:
A fan of George Bush, I am not. In 2004, IMO, he merely represented the lesser of two evils. He's wrong, IMO, about everything from stem cell research to global warming... from abortion to the Death Tax... and I have frequently opined accordingly.


Sometimes, in the jumble of different topics, it's easier to throw one another into big "pro" and "con" camps, than to try to address posters as individuals. I am guilty of that. It's honestly just easier to remember the big, controversial differences than the subtle similarities or grey areas between personalities here on A2K. I have some views about gay marriage and abortion that are not cookie-cutter "liberal", but I get tossed into the most convenient category sometimes myself.

Quote:
Contrarily; like Brandon, I've wanted Saddam brought down since Bush senior failed to bring it about and to this day view Clinton with a degree of disdain for his failure to adequately address Saddam's actions throughout the 90's and especially in 1998. In as much as George Bush set out to do work I honestly believe needed and still needs doing, yes, he has my support.


This is where you and I can honestly disagree. I see Iraq as a result of a lie cooked up purposefully, and served up to the public at large with a large helping of guile. I see the countless billions of dollars and thousands of lives being spent there as needless losses. I don't believe you can create a democracy at gunpoint, and I don't believe that Bush had a sane plan to do even that.

Quote:
Construing this to mean I am irrationally following the direction of our third rate would-be Czar,


I like that

Quote:
or that I've forfeited my intellectual or moral integrity in my blind loyalty to same is as childish as it is patently false, and frankly; a pretty crappy argument on your part.


It was shot from the hip - admittedly to get a reaction, but not done contemptuously. Someone accusing me of being a drone for Obama has made me examine the substance of my beliefs on another thread. I think that's sort of what I was trying for here. Thanks for taking the time to answer thoughtfully, O'Bill.

Quote:
While you lay awake at night wondering in disbelief how any reasonably intelligent being could fail to recognize the futility in Bush's war and post with such obvious disregard for the plight of the American Soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike


If you are saying that I have disregard for our soldiers, I have to say that is just not so...

Quote:
and how they must be intellectually and/or morally bankrupt;


If you are suggesting that I include our soldiers in my indictment of moral or intellectual compromise - I do not - I am highly sympathetic to the soldiers' lot in life, being one myself, and subject to the whims of our "third rate would be czar".

Quote:
I can't imagine for the life of me how anyone could have been satisfied with the status quo in Iraq... and dozens of places like it.


A lot to talk about, in that "dozens of other places" piece. Iraq was about 40th on a list of descending degree of potential danger
to us at the time of our invasion, and I wasn't "satisfied" with any of them.


Quote:
While you consider words like freedom and democracy as meaningless propaganda (in regards to Iraq) for the purpose of misleading the ignorant war-mongering masses;


Well, O'Bill - sometimes they are used as just exactly that, and sometimes they aren't.

Quote:
I wonder how any American could fail to see the bigger picture.
While you ponder in disgust the 3,000 Americans thus far killed in this feckless pursuit; I stand in awe of their courage and the inherent righteousness of purpose as well as their collective willingness to unselfishly risk their lives that others may live better, more fulfilling lives. I consider the 80% of pre-war defacto second rate citizens who suffered in tyranny not unlike apartheid in Iraq. I wonder how anyone who's vote controls the most powerful entity mankind has ever known (the U.S.), can complacently desire it to turn the blind eye to savagery and the near hopeless plight of millions of his fellow humans, everywhere.


That last was almost so full of presumtuous and arrogant self-righteousness that it almost defies a measured answer. One can be genuinely against this war in Iraq without having callous disregard for the "near hopeless plight of millions of his fellow humans, everywhere."

Quote:
I maintain that ability to effect change carries the burdensome, righteous responsibility to do so.


There is still that small, bothersome FACT that we have not succeeded in Iraq.

Quote:
You've read my numerous analogies comparing the bystanders during a rape to the desire to have the world's only superpower stand idle while millions, if not billions, of people continue to be victimized be the tyranny of totalitarian governance.


I honestly don't remember reading those analogies, but I'll take your word for their existence in great number.

Quote:
Not only do I consider the goal of a democratic Iraq to be noble; I consider it a near meaningless beginning if we were to stop there.


And this is very basic to our difference - I don't think we can go into Iraq and "shock and awe" our way to Socratic democracy. I think the insurgency, and the conflict between Sunni and Shia should be ample evidence to that. You can call it "noble" if you want - I don't think its realistic.

Quote:
Until every oppressed people are freed from the chains of tyranny; the United States (as the world's most powerful nation) will continue to carry a disproportionate burden of guilt for our collective apathy to the plight of our fellow man.


That's heady stuff, O'Bill, and if I didn't believe that you meant it sincerely I would doubtless have sonething snide to say here. But not because tyranny or oppression or concern for our fellow man aren't real and important concepts. Just because that's not what I see when I look at Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Rice.

Quote:
Circling back to Iraq in particular, at this late date and in consideration of what Iran likely has in store for Iraq's citizenry if we were to abandon them now; my thoughts are not limited to the immediate future of Iraqi civilians and our soldiers alike. I can not dismiss the knowledge that 5 million or so Iraqi little girls age 14 and under would likely be sacrificed to a life of second class citizenry and in too many ways; slavery. I am not suggesting this can be easily or quickly changed… and I can not even honestly claim confidence that the endeavor will result in success
.

But at what point does one stop bailing out a sinking ship?


Quote:
Of course I realize that even a successful democracy could easily vote in the very evil I wish to oppose. However, a lack of easy solutions in no way obscures the, IMO, clear righteousness of the cause.


See above

Quote:
If I look out my window and see 3 perps in the act of rape, despite knowing I'd be over-matched and my chances of successful interference low, I would nonetheless feel compelled to try. So would you. On the global scale; millions, if not billions of lives hang in the balance. If the most powerful entity mankind has ever known doesn't attempt to effect change; who will?


It's hard to argue against trying to stop a rape, or when you put things in terms of helping billions of innocents. But in "attempting to effect change" in Iraq, I submit that there is no evidence that the change we have effected thus far has been for the better.

Quote:
I can't know if George Bush gives a rat's a$$ about the plight of the afore mentioned millions… and moreover; it doesn't really matter. Insofar as his actions serve a parallel purpose to my own, he'll continue to enjoy my support in the endeavor. Frankly, he's entirely too dove-ish for my purposes, and seems entirely too narrow minded in purpose. I can only assume better leadership would be better able to speed the pace of human evolution towards a more comprehensive solution for the oppressed millions everywhere… and I hope one day to campaign for just such a leader.


Any leader I hope to campaign for will have to have some very concrete plans for some very concrete change. And I would also hope that they can temper ambitions of saving the world with a better grasp on reality that George Bush has.

Quote:
In the mean time; George Bush seemed several steps closer to my ideal than did John Kerry, so I voted accordingly. You should be able to understand this without resorting to idiotic suggestions that those who oppose your politics could only do so out of ignorance, a lack of intellectual or moral integrity, or blind adherence to the principles or lack thereof of the current administration.


I didn't say anything about "those who oppose my politics", and to suggest that I did is disingenuous. I said those who blindly followed the war policies of George Bush could be described that way. What you are calling "my politics" in this case - the belief that the United States should begin staged withdrawal from Iraq now - is shared by every majority that I've seen polled lately.

Quote:
While it is certainly fair to paint me as unrealistic or misguided in your assessments, it is patently unfair to suggest that I've arrived at my conclusions out of intellectual or moral bankruptcy or, more ridiculous still; out of some unrelenting loyalty to a President I generally regard as incompetent.


I have already said, and I will repeat here, that I was probably hasty in painting with such a broad brush.

Quote:
That sir, is demonstrative of an utter lack of intellectual integrity.


And now hopefully we are even in our negative characterizations of each other.[/[/color]
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 09:54 pm
Re: Bush Supporters are Intellectually and Morally Compromis
[the whispering starts]

Whatever you do, don't jump ship. You'll be easily identified as a rat. Stay on the ship and start pointing fingers. He's dead meat anyway. Pretend you were independent, that you held to the highest of moral values - as long as you can still mouth aphorisms about the pursuit of freedom and democracy, it won't matter that hundreds of thousands of innocents have lost any chance for the pursuit of anything.

Hell, 'member we can always fall back on our fail safe position - they ain't Americans, so who's gonna care. It's worked for us for the last century or so, so why won't it work for us now.

Hey look on the bright side. We've royally phucked over yet another country but hey, we didn't kill millions like we did in SE Asia. We must be getting better at this.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 10:01 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Nice.

As Jim Rome would say, "Rack him."


Jim Rome is a perfect role model for you.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 12:58 am
Re: Bush Supporters are Intellectually and Morally Compromis
snood wrote:
Quote:
Construing this to mean I am irrationally following the direction of our third rate would-be Czar,


I like that

Quote:
or that I've forfeited my intellectual or moral integrity in my blind loyalty to same is as childish as it is patently false, and frankly; a pretty crappy argument on your part.


It was shot from the hip - admittedly to get a reaction, but not done contemptuously. Someone accusing me of being a drone for Obama has made me examine the substance of my beliefs on another thread. I think that's sort of what I was trying for here. Thanks for taking the time to answer thoughtfully, O'Bill.
No worries; we've conversed enough that I recognize this as NOT your normal means of discourse. If you recall; I objected on the other thread for the same reason I did here.

snood wrote:
Quote:
While you lay awake at night wondering in disbelief how any reasonably intelligent being could fail to recognize the futility in Bush's war and post with such obvious disregard for the plight of the American Soldiers and Iraqi civilians alike


If you are saying that I have disregard for our soldiers, I have to say that is just not so...

Quote:
and how they must be intellectually and/or morally bankrupt;


If you are suggesting that I include our soldiers in my indictment of moral or intellectual compromise - I do not - I am highly sympathetic to the soldiers' lot in life, being one myself, and subject to the whims of our "third rate would be czar".
Total misinterpretation. I was representing the "Right" you included me in with those assessment's... presumably from your perspective. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

snood wrote:
Quote:
I can't imagine for the life of me how anyone could have been satisfied with the status quo in Iraq... and dozens of places like it.


A lot to talk about, in that "dozens of other places" piece. Iraq was about 40th on a list of descending degree of potential danger
to us at the time of our invasion, and I wasn't "satisfied" with any of them.
A search of my posting history would reveal, contrary to JTT's predictably idiotic remarks, "danger" has always been a secondary concern. To the extent our actions may result in a net result of reduced terrorism; I consider it paramount to secure the freedom of self determination to oppressed masses wherever they may be. Every degree short of this increases the likelihood of terrorism. I believe terrorism is the product of desperation (NOT simple evil) and for as long as tyrants are allowed to maintain power by maintaining a hopeless totalitarian life for their citizenry; terrorism will be the result. Simply put: a man with a decent opportunity to provide his family with a decent lot in life doesn't strap a bomb to his chest. As unpalatable as removing the sadistic monsters at the top these oppressive regimes may be; one can not escape the simple truth the desperation that causes terrorism will continue to exist as long as these tyrannies do. Moreover, the suffering caused by terrorism is peanuts compared to the suffering implicit in the causes of same. North Koreans, Iraqis, etc. are as human as you or I and deserve no less Human Rights than we do... even if one of the side effects of apathy wasn't terrorism.

snood wrote:
Quote:
While you consider words like freedom and democracy as meaningless propaganda (in regards to Iraq) for the purpose of misleading the ignorant war-mongering masses;


Well, O'Bill - sometimes they are used as just exactly that, and sometimes they aren't.

Quote:
I wonder how any American could fail to see the bigger picture.
While you ponder in disgust the 3,000 Americans thus far killed in this feckless pursuit; I stand in awe of their courage and the inherent righteousness of purpose as well as their collective willingness to unselfishly risk their lives that others may live better, more fulfilling lives. I consider the 80% of pre-war defacto second rate citizens who suffered in tyranny not unlike apartheid in Iraq. I wonder how anyone who's vote controls the most powerful entity mankind has ever known (the U.S.), can complacently desire it to turn the blind eye to savagery and the near hopeless plight of millions of his fellow humans, everywhere.


That last was almost so full of presumtuous and arrogant self-righteousness that it almost defies a measured answer. One can be genuinely against this war in Iraq without having callous disregard for the "near hopeless plight of millions of his fellow humans, everywhere."
:smile: Than my point was well taken. :wink: I was articulating the other side of the coin you carelessly toss when assuming your view is the only one devoid of callus disregard and moral and intellectual compromise. Despite disagreeing with your premise, I generally stop short of such generalized assumptions, knowing that from your shoes they are false. Reciprocal courtesy and benefit of the doubt is appreciated.

snood wrote:
Quote:
I maintain that ability to effect change carries the burdensome, righteous responsibility to do so.


There is still that small, bothersome FACT that we have not succeeded in Iraq.
Sometimes we have to recognize the futility in expecting instant gratification... as well as the FACT that lack of same isn't necessarily indicative of failure. Despite many decades in pursuit of equal rights for women and minorities; frequent failures and setbacks should never be exemplified to represent a lack of righteousness or futility of the struggle. Your oh so convenient position of "we haven't succeeded" or "it's worse now than when we started" would not be well taken by the likes of Alice Paul or MLK. The consequences of the struggle itself are certainly considerable, and rightly so, but it is the height of intellectual dishonesty to declare a lack of success to date as evidence of failure, let alone futility. Imagine if such a premise were accepted after any of the numerous losses of the North to Robert E Lee.

The American Civil War was by far the deadliest in American history, and the conclusion was hardly a fore drawn, but was it worth it? I'm sure some thought Lincoln should have thrown in the towel after the bloodiest day in U.S. military history, the battle of Antietam, where some 26,000 American's paid the ultimate price. Instead, 5 days later he issued the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. Idea Victory was still years away, and even then the hatred didn't evaporate and I think you'd agree that the issues that led up to the war have still to be completely resolved.

Iraq didn't have a suffering minority like that in the United States. They had a suffering Majority. IMO, worse than an Iraqi Civil War (which some think is worst possible consequence) would be no change… as the status quo was obscene.



snood wrote:
Quote:
You've read my numerous analogies comparing the bystanders during a rape to the desire to have the world's only superpower stand idle while millions, if not billions, of people continue to be victimized be the tyranny of totalitarian governance.


I honestly don't remember reading those analogies, but I'll take your word for their existence in great number.
Present in even my earliest arguments on A2K.

snood wrote:
Quote:
Until every oppressed people are freed from the chains of tyranny; the United States (as the world's most powerful nation) will continue to carry a disproportionate burden of guilt for our collective apathy to the plight of our fellow man.


That's heady stuff, O'Bill, and if I didn't believe that you meant it sincerely I would doubtless have sonething snide to say here. But not because tyranny or oppression or concern for our fellow man aren't real and important concepts. Just because that's not what I see when I look at Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Rice.
How many times must I reiterate that the motivations of Bush & Co. have little bearing on my position?

snood wrote:
Quote:
Circling back to Iraq in particular, at this late date and in consideration of what Iran likely has in store for Iraq's citizenry if we were to abandon them now; my thoughts are not limited to the immediate future of Iraqi civilians and our soldiers alike. I can not dismiss the knowledge that 5 million or so Iraqi little girls age 14 and under would likely be sacrificed to a life of second class citizenry and in too many ways; slavery. I am not suggesting this can be easily or quickly changed… and I can not even honestly claim confidence that the endeavor will result in success
.

But at what point does one stop bailing out a sinking ship?
In freezing water? When the ship goes under unless you've evacuated the passengers.

snood wrote:
Quote:
Of course I realize that even a successful democracy could easily vote in the very evil I wish to oppose. However, a lack of easy solutions in no way obscures the, IMO, clear righteousness of the cause.


See above
See above.

snood wrote:
Quote:
If I look out my window and see 3 perps in the act of rape, despite knowing I'd be over-matched and my chances of successful interference low, I would nonetheless feel compelled to try. So would you. On the global scale; millions, if not billions of lives hang in the balance. If the most powerful entity mankind has ever known doesn't attempt to effect change; who will?


It's hard to argue against trying to stop a rape, or when you put things in terms of helping billions of innocents. But in "attempting to effect change" in Iraq, I submit that there is no evidence that the change we have effected thus far has been for the better.
Again, see above.

snood wrote:
Quote:
I can't know if George Bush gives a rat's a$$ about the plight of the afore mentioned millions… and moreover; it doesn't really matter. Insofar as his actions serve a parallel purpose to my own, he'll continue to enjoy my support in the endeavor. Frankly, he's entirely too dove-ish for my purposes, and seems entirely too narrow minded in purpose. I can only assume better leadership would be better able to speed the pace of human evolution towards a more comprehensive solution for the oppressed millions everywhere… and I hope one day to campaign for just such a leader.


Any leader I hope to campaign for will have to have some very concrete plans for some very concrete change. And I would also hope that they can temper ambitions of saving the world with a better grasp on reality that George Bush has.

Quote:
In the mean time; George Bush seemed several steps closer to my ideal than did John Kerry, so I voted accordingly. You should be able to understand this without resorting to idiotic suggestions that those who oppose your politics could only do so out of ignorance, a lack of intellectual or moral integrity, or blind adherence to the principles or lack thereof of the current administration.


I didn't say anything about "those who oppose my politics", and to suggest that I did is disingenuous. I said those who blindly followed the war policies of George Bush could be described that way. What you are calling "my politics" in this case - the belief that the United States should begin staged withdrawal from Iraq now - is shared by every majority that I've seen polled lately.
I don't necessarily oppose a withdrawal, depending on the intended strategy adjustment. I oppose abandonment. I've never been impressed by attempts at Argumentum ad populum, as consensus means nothing to me when assessing right and wrong. Sometimes it turns out the world isn't flat.

I would like to state my appreciation for your reasonable retreat from your overbroad generalizations. The integrity you display in doing so is admirable and one of the reasons I enjoy disagreeing with you ( which is most of the time :razz:).
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 08:54 am
The following is about a year old, nevertheless, in view of this topic, I find it good to explain the way many of those who oppose the war and favor at least an end in sight feel. I personally don't favor an all out pull out (phased withdrawal)from Iraq but rather redeployment to the borders leaving Iraqis to fight out the civil wars among themselves. But otherwise, this article is right on in my opinion.

Quote:
Daou Report
by Peter Daou
THE STRAW MEN OF IRAQ: Ten Pro-War Fallacies

November 21, 2005

Friday's hastily staged congressional vote on withdrawal from Iraq may have been designed to embarrass John Murtha, but the raucous session offered valuable insight into the various rationales for war and the tactics used to attack Democrats who oppose Bush's Iraq policy. A parade of House Republicans went after the Dems and laid out a surprisingly weak case for the invasion and continued occupation of Iraq. Here, in my view, are ten of the leading pro-war fallacies...

1. VIRTUALLY EVERYONE WHO SAW THE INTELLIGENCE BELIEVED SADDAM HAD WMD, THEREFORE BUSH IS BEING UNFAIRLY SINGLED OUT FOR CRITICISM

The typical framing is: "Democrats got the same intelligence and reached the same conclusion, so blaming Bush for misleading America is purely political." The argument is also presented in 'gotcha' form by people like Sean Hannity, who use a lengthy blind quote about the threat posed by Saddam that turns out to be from Bill Clinton, John Kerry or some other Democrat. The conclusion is that if Bush was lying, they must have been lying too.

There is a false assumption underlying this argument, namely that Dems received the same intel as Bush (they didn't), but setting that aside, here are two reasons why this is a straw man:

a) The issue is not whether people believed Saddam had WMD (many did), or whether there was any evidence that he had WMD (there was), it's the fact that Bush and his administration made an absolute, unconditional case with the evidence at hand, brooking no dissent and dismissing doubters inside and outside the government as cowardly or treasonous. That's what "manipulating the intelligence" and "misleading the public" refers to, the knowing exaggeration of the case for war (whether by cherry-picking intel or using defunct intel or by speaking about ambiguous intel in alarming absolutes). As I wrote in this post: "There we were, more than a decade after the first gulf war, two years after 9/11, and Saddam hadn't attacked us, he hadn't threatened to attack us. And then suddenly, he was the biggest threat to America. A threat that required a massive invasion. A bigger threat than Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, Bin Laden. A HUGE, IMMEDIATE threat. It simply defied belief."

b) In addition to the fear-mongering described above, the contention that Bush 'misled' the public is not simply about Saddam's WMD, but about the way the administration stormed ahead with their plans and invaded Iraq in the way they did, at the time they did, with the Pollyannaish visions they fed the world, all the while demonizing dissent and smearing their critics.

In both (a) and (b), the crux of the issue is proportionality. Whether or not Bill Clinton or France or the U.N. believed Saddam was a threat, the administration's apocalyptic words and drastic actions (preemptively invading a sovereign nation) were decidedly out of proportion to the level and immediacy of the threat. THAT is the issue.

2. AFTER 9/11, WE CAN'T WAIT FOR THE THREAT TO MATERIALIZE BEFORE TAKING ACTION

This is often used as a counterpoint to the notion that Bush overhyped the rationale for war. It's a vacuous argument whose logic implies we should invade a half-dozen African countries as well as North Korea, China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Every day that goes by that Bush allows these threats to "materialize," he is failing in his duties to protect the American public and should be impeached. And if the pushback is that North Korea and others are being dealt with diplomatically, isn't that exactly the approach this argument purports to refute?

Furthermore, the war's opponents never claimed they'd prefer to "wait" for threats to materialize. This is another straw man. Nobody wants to wait for threats to materialize; they just want to deal with them differently.

3. DEMOCRATS "VOTED FOR" AND THUS "SUPPORTED" THE WAR

The Iraq War Resolution (IWR) debate has been flogged to death, so there's no need to fully resurrect it here. Suffice it to say that:

a) Many elected Democrats did NOT vote in favor of the resolution. Not to mention the millions of rank and filers who marched down the streets of our cities and were largely ignored by the press and brushed off by Bush. So to say, generically, that Democrats "supported the war" or to imply that there was tepid resistance to it, is false.

b) No matter how many people contest this point, a vote to give Bush authority WAS NOT a vote "for war." Bush also had the authority NOT to invade. Since Republicans are so fond of quoting John Kerry in support of the case for WMD, here are his words on the floor of the Senate the day of the Iraq War Resolution vote.

"In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

"If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent''--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

"Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

"Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances."

Not exactly an endorsement of Bush's approach or a vote "for war." And a good retort to those who argue that Democrats are "rewriting history."

4. TALK OF WITHDRAWAL "SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE" AND "EMBOLDENS THE ENEMY"

To borrow Samuel Johnson's immortal words, this argument, like (false) patriotism, is the "last refuge of scoundrels." Implying that opposing views are treasonous is the surest way to stifle dissent.

And it's a cheap way to avoid confronting hard questions. Such as: Does anyone seriously believe that Bush's course of action in Iraq has intimidated or deterred the enemy? Doesn't the fact that the insurgency is as strong as ever "embolden" the enemy?

The sobering truth is that there are dozens of recent events and actions that 'embolden the enemy' far more than advocating a disciplined, phased redeployment. Torture of detainees, the use of white phosphorus as an offensive weapon, the curtailing of civil liberties at home, the shameful abandonment of American citizens in the aftermath of Katrina, the cynical outing of CIA agents, the smearing of war critics as traitors, these are far more encouraging to America's enemies. If we are truly engaged in a clash of civilizations, an epic battle against "Islamofascism," then our enemies are far more interested in the destruction of those things that are quintessentially American and that give us the moral high ground (freedom of speech, adherence to international law, upholding ethical norms and standards, respect for human rights, etc.) than strategic redeployment in Iraq.

5. A WITHDRAWAL FROM IRAQ WOULD HAVE CATASTROPHIC CONSEQUENCES

If I learned anything from living in Beirut, it's that predicting the outcome of sectarian divisions in the Middle East is a fool's game. The shifting alliances, the internal pressures, the regional influences, make it next to impossible to say whether or not the removal of American forces would further destabilize Iraq.

It's also grimly amusing that we're expected to believe the prognostications of the very people who told us we'd be greeted as liberators.

For every foreign policy expert who says that Iraq will be worse off without U.S. troops, there's another who will tell you the exact opposite is true. In the absence of any sound predictive capabilities, the endgame should be based on the opening: i.e. the sooner you end something that started out wrong and has had terrible consequences, the better.

For those who counter with the Pottery Barn rule (we broke it we should fix it), the question is: What's the statute of limitations on that rule? What if we can't fix what's broken in Iraq? Is there a point at which we acknowledge we can't fix it and stop trying? Is our attempt to 'fix' Iraq breaking it even further? Also, are there other things we've broken that we're obliged to fix before we try to fix Iraq? Is there a reason our limited resources should go to fixing Iraq and not saving poor, sick, and hungry children in America?

6. WITHDRAWING FROM IRAQ IS TANTAMOUNT TO "CUTTING & RUNNING"

Any talk of withdrawal, redeployment or a change in course is characterized as "cutting and running." This word-play is so disingenuous that it hardly merits a rebuttal, but the best response to the notion that a war hero like John Kerry or John Murtha wants to "cut and run" is Murtha's response to Cheney: "I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

A phased withdrawal is just that, a phased withdrawal. And a timetable is just that, a timetable. Using politically-charged buzzwords won't change the fact that the present course of action is untenable. It is the height of folly to continue on a tragic and deadly path just to save face. And as we pointed out in #3, enough has been done to "embolden the enemy" that leaving Iraq will have little effect in that regard.

For those who think continuing with the current policy in Iraq is a mark of courage and changing direction the mark of cowardice, they should bear in mind that courage tempered by wisdom is noble, courage in defiance of wisdom is foolhardy.

7. WE'RE FIGHTING THEM 'THERE' SO WE DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT THEM HERE

No matter how many times reality intrudes on this fantasy, it's still one of the favored arguments by the war's supporters. And it was repeated more than once in the House debate.

This is yet another straw man: we all agree that it's better to fight our enemies somewhere other than on the streets of America. The problem with the "fight them there" approach is that:

a) Iraq wasn't "there" until AFTER the invasion. (In spite of the mental contortions of Bush apologists who insist there was a substantive Saddam-Qaeda connection.)

b) Our policy in Iraq is creating more of "them."

c) "There" is where "them" (Bin Laden and his cohorts) are. And it ain't Iraq.

(comment added by me: also it is just horrible to think other neighborhoods are ok to fight in, like their lives are not as deserving as American lives.)

A corollary to this argument is that Iraq is the "central front in the war on terror" and we can't defeat the terrorists if we don't fight them there. That's like walking into someone's house, breaking an expensive vase, and claiming you have to move in because your job is to clean up broken vases and as long as vases are being broken, you have to be there to clean up the mess. Arguments don't get more circular than this...

And if remaining in Iraq is really about Bush's resolve to defend America against our enemies by keeping them away from the mainland, let's not forget what Katrina's aftermath tells us about how well this administration is preparing for domestic threats. Imagine the holes in domestic security that could be plugged with the toil and treasure being spent in Iraq.

8. DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A PLAN FOR IRAQ, THEY'RE JUST ATTACKING BUSH TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS

Democrats deserve legitimate criticism for their approach to Iraq, but when the Republican Party controls all branches of government, attacking Dems for conflicting positions and a confused message shouldn't be a catch-all excuse for Republican mistakes and lies.

Saying Democrats are muddled on Iraq is a favorite media distraction. But the response is simple: if Bush's policy is to "stay the course," the Democratic policy - whether we accept Murtha's approach or Feingold's or Kerry's - is to "change the course." Simple enough. Changing positions in light of new evidence and new circumstances is the sign of a mature and rational mind. Stubbornly clinging to a failed course of action is not.

It's fascinating how Democrats are always the ones held to account for their Iraq vote, but not Republicans. The question constantly put to Dems, "you voted for it, now you're against it," has a straightforward answer, as phrased by a Democratic senator: "we authorized Bush to put the bullet in the gun, not to shoot us in the foot." We've been shot in the foot by the administration's Iraq policy. Democrats are rightfully reacting to that. The real question - to Republicans - is this: "You voted for this war based on Saddam's threat to America. The threat never materialized. Was your decision wrong? And does your lockstep allegiance to Bush's failed policy make you personally responsible for further deaths beyond the 2000+ American troops who have already given their lives?"

9. HISTORY WILL VINDICATE BUSH

The infinite time horizon is an easy cop out for supporters of the Iraq war. I wrote this in August: "The problem with the Bush apologists' reasoning is that using an infinite time horizon - which they are so fond of - virtually any action, no matter how egregious, can be shown to lead to some positive results. It's the bastardization of utilitarianism; asserting a causal relationship between a pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation and all future good developments in Iraq and the Middle East may swell the hawks' breasts with pride, but it's a dubious and dangerous way to conduct foreign policy. Which is precisely why we need to adhere so strictly to the rule of law, to basic moral precepts, and to established principles of international relations, something that this administration has failed to do, and that the administration's supporters can dance around but can't justify."

10. ISN'T IT A GOOD THING THAT SADDAM IS GONE?

This is the ultimate fall-back for supporters of this disastrous war. Somber references to mass graves, Saddam gassing his people, liberating the Iraqis from a dictator, spreading freedom, etc., are second only to flag-waving and bumper-sticker "support" for the troops when it comes to feel-good justifications for the fiasco in Iraq.

To human rights activists, this faux-bleeding heart conservatism rings hollow. Considering the unremitting suffering and killing and violence and abuse of innocents that takes place on this planet, it is intellectually dishonest to resort to a retroactive humanitarian rationalization for a war that was ostensibly defensive in nature. Especially when we callously ignore the plight of so many others who suffer in silence.

If the trump card question is "don't you think it's good that Saddam is gone?" then one rhetorical question can be met with another:

Isn't it terrible that we've done nothing to stop the slaughter in Darfur?
Isn't it terrible that Iraq is still a killing field and now a terrorist breeding ground?
Isn't it terrible that a nuclear armed Kim Jong Il is still in power?
Isn't it terrible that the hundreds of billions of dollars spent in Iraq could have saved millions of starving children instead of killing tens of thousands of Americans and Iraqis?

And so on...


===========

POSTSCRIPT: Washington is suddenly convulsed by a debate that should have taken place three years ago, and the sleeping giant known as the American public is finally awakening to the deceptions that led to war. Emotion, instinct, and other proclivities may be the driving force behind support for or opposition to war, but reason and logic are the means by which we try to prove the correctness of our views. No matter how heartfelt, the arguments in favor of the Iraq war are almost always specious and riddled with fallacious reasoning. On a matter so grave, that should be unacceptable to the American people. Judging from the polls, it is.


source

(this isn't a condemnation of every Iraq war supporter, but just a generalization of most of the pundits and some posters)
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:03 am
Occom Bill
Occom Bill wrote: "we haven't succeeded" or "it's worse now than when we started" would not be well taken by the likes of Alice Paul or MLK. The consequences of the struggle itself are certainly considerable...

Bill, Alice Paul's grandaughter, Lorraine, was a good friend of mine. She carried on her grandmother's traditions with dedication and integrity. I enjoyed her stories about her grandmother's life as a suffragette. We met when we were forming a national labor womens' organization, the Coalition of Labor Union Women (CLUW). She worked hard on the project even though she was recovering from injuries resulting from a terrible auto accident.

BBB
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:19 am
Thanks for pointing out O'Bill's use of MLK to strengthen his argument. I think I completely overlooked that.

Let me say that I do not in any way accept that MLK would not "take well" the observation that we aren't succeeding in Iraq. There is nothing to suggest that MLK would have accepted quietly the invasion in the first place, much less not been in dissent against staying there. I suppose you used his name to reference his many struggles against the forsces of oppression in America. But in using his name, you conveniently overlook that MLK was diametrically opposed to the use of the military/industrial powers of the US to "fight for democracy" in Vietnam, and would most probably be likewise opposed to our "mission" in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:29 am
I don't think you quite grasped the point Bill was making.

He was not suggesting that MLK would have supported the war, rather that sometimes the struggle is worth the sacrifice and time. We can not allow the need for instant gratification and immediate results cloud the vision of long term goals.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:39 am
I "grasp" that oftentimes icons of the "other" ideology are used in exposition of a stance in a discussion (MLK has been bandied about by the right as in support of everything from disassembling affirmative action to dismantling the public school system), and I was not going to let that pass unacknowledged.

Your condescending "explanation" of O'Bill's 'real' intent doesn't address that to use MLK in the way he did - in the middle of a longish point about not abandoning the oppressed - made it impossible to extricate exactly how MLK would and would not react, when faced with the spectre of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:40 am
In 2002, Walter started a thread entitled "Anti-War Movement." As it got very long, Jespah split it off and re-named the thread "The US, UN and Iraq." It is now in its tenth iteration (counting Walter's original thread).

In that thread, and consistently since then, i have opposed this war, and clearly stated my disbelief for the reasons which were advanced then in justification for the invasion of Iraq. I have seen many, many members who also opposed the invasion, who questioned the justifications, and have consistently maintained their positions.

Many, many members at that time supported the (then projected) invasion, and have supported the "mission" since that time. (I have put the word mission in quotes for a reason which should now become obvious.) However, i see a significant distinction between those opposed and those supporting this military adventure. Those who oppose it, and have been on record as opposing it, have a consistency of expressed opinion which many of those with whom they disagree lack. Those who have supported this venture include many who have changed their rational for supporting the venture as circumstance has revealed the poverty of the original claims. One important aspect of the rush to war was the inferential association of Iraq with the September 11th terrorists. The Shrub never, to my knowledge, officially made such a claim--he left that inference to Cheney and the Republican faithful, the national party equivalent of ward-heelers who went out to spread the gospel. The failure to substantiate this inferential claim has lead to a shift in the propaganda of the right.

Now people on the right have come to lump all terrorists into one group, and to suggest that the insurgents in Iraq are no different from the September 11th hijackers, and that this is all a part of the war on terror. They ignore, side-step or deny that there is an important distinction to be made between al Qaeda, an organization which has repeatedly attacked us, and Iraqi insurgents (call them terrorists if you like) and the pitifully small number of foreigners (mostly from neighboring countries) who have entered Iraq to take advantage of the opportunity to attack Americans. This same blindness can be seen in their failure to distinguish between "terrorists" who attack Shi'ites because they are Shi'ites, and "terrorists" who attack Sunnis because they are Sunnis. The evolution of this argument can be seen in the increasingly strident (almost hysterical) insistence on the use of the meaningless epithet "islamo-fascists." It is important to the propagandist to blur all distinctions so as to continue to feed the fear which lead many people in 2002 and early 2003 to link in their minds Iraq and al Qaeda--despite the lack of any official claim on the part of the administration that such a link existed.

On the subject of womd, many, many people on the right have also shifted their ground on that topic over the last four years. Before the invasion, they spoke with certitude about the existence of such weapons and programs. Immediately after the invasion, they asserted that the weapons and programs would be revealed. As hope of the faded, they have adopted yet other positions, a favorite being that the weapons were spirited out of Iraq (usually alleging that they were taken to Syria). I know of only one member who has consistently maintained a position with regard to womd, and that is Brandon. This should not be misconstrued as meaning that i absolve Brandon of inconsistency in his position--when taken to task on the issue, he always has excuses for why this was necessary in the case of Iraq, but not in the case of other nations, such as North Korea. However, Brandon does deserve a sad kind of credit for maintaining the same position with regard to the necessity for this invasion.

In general, however, i see no reason to indulge in personalities. Some members here have long pointed out that the PNAC had an agenda for the invasion of Iraq long before the Shrub was elected, and long before the September 11th attacks. At least one member of whom i know has freely acknowledged that he has no objection to this agenda. Another member who generally keeps a low profile in these discussions has told me in a personal, face-to-face conversation that he considers the basic PNAC agenda justified (but not in those terms, we did not specifically discuss the PNAC). I consider this important because i have also long pointed out that agenda, and have consistently stated that i consider it the true reason for the Iraq invasion, and that all else is propaganda and window-dressing, justification for what was already planned.

And that brings us to the issue of moral or intellectual bankruptcy. For some people who support this venture, their arguments consist of nothing but propaganda. Such people may not even consciously be engaged in a disingenuous effort to justify this war, but may be sincere in considering it a worthwhile effort, and therefore shift their rationale to suit the changing circumstances. For others, it is probably just the inability to admit that they are or ever were wrong about this war. For a few, it is probably just the excitement entailed in publicly and viciously excoriating those with whom the disagree. I would tend to think that most of those who support this war are basically honest folks, but that they have been mislead, and their own sincerity will not allow them to canvas the notion that they have been hoodwinked by those whom they had trusted, and he to whom they looked for leadership. That's not a very good basis, however, to justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

I don't hate the Shrub, despite the hysterical claims of people here who don't like me or my point of view. I am contemptuous of him, and have said so publicly and derisively, online, since before this site existed. I decried his fiddling with the tax rates in favor of his rich cronies, and the evaporation of the previous surplus before the invasion of Iraq was even mooted. I decried his lip-service to extremist christianity, which in its extremes in the United States, qualifies the christian extremists as members of hate groups. This war was just another mark against him in my book. Many on the right will claim i hate the Shrub, and will therefore criticize anything he does. This is inaccurate, but i have no delusions about convincing such people that they are wrong. I would point out to them that they are incapable of seeing any fault in his policies.

As with any topic which greatly exercises the public imagination, the majority of people who disagree with one another are very likely decent, honest people who simply cannot see one another's positions as justified. As with any such topic, those who are fanatical--those who do actually hate the Shrub, or worship the ground upon which he treads--represent a very small lunatic fringe.

If there is any dishonesty here, it is in people being dishonest with themselves about the motives of those who are responsible for this war. Those who think of the Shrub as evil incarnate, a blood-thirsty war-monger, are deluding themselves. Personally, i consider him simply as incompetent, and incapable of realizing the extent of his folly, and the criminality of his actions. Those who see him as the savior of western civilization in the face of world-wide, monolithic Muslim conspiracy to destroy all that is good and just are just as deluded.

So, in the final analysis, all i see is that those who have opposed this war have been reasonably consistent in their arguments against the venture, and that those who support this war have shifted with the winds of circumstance, because they can't or won't admit that they were wrong. I suspect that the latter group will continue to claim that they are not wrong, and will do so long after the Shrub is gone, and long after we have left Iraq.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:47 am
Well writ.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 09:50 am
Thanks
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:16 am
I would like to wish Snood...and all the good folks posting in this thread...

...a wonderful, happy, and rewarding 2007.

I think it would be better if I did not express an opinion about President Bush...about his administration...about the way the "war" in Iraq is being run…or about what could easily be considered "lemming behavior" on the part of some supporters of the president.

But I do have a couple of questions that I think are not completely off topic:

As part of his defense, Saddam Hussein, on a couple of occasions, indicated that the "toughness" (the free world called it "brutality") he showed was necessary for the stability of the country…was necessary to keep disparate forces in check so that the country could operate in a reasonably civilized manner.

Did that part of his defense make sense?

Are the Iraqis better off now than they were with Saddam Hussein?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:49 am
Greetings Frank. And best wishes for a peaceful and prosperous New Year to ya.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:42 am
Frank Apisa wrote:

As part of his defense, Saddam Hussein, on a couple of occasions, indicated that the "toughness" (the free world called it "brutality") he showed was necessary for the stability of the country…was necessary to keep disparate forces in check so that the country could operate in a reasonably civilized manner.

Did that part of his defense make sense?

Are the Iraqis better off now than they were with Saddam Hussein?


I've been wondering this myself, especially during discussions about whether torture and other measures are justified in the name of national security. While Saddam certainly was a "bad man", I have been trying to figure out what I would have done in his place to hold together an artificial country with what friends and tools I had. I like to think I'd be clever and set up a government not unlike our US of A and step down after stability was established, and that I would certainly recognize the humanitarian rights of the people I governed. But it seems, based on discussions here about the tactics of our own country, that there are some national concerns that can make a government weigh these rights against a national interest, and find them wanting.

Sorry if that's a little off topic, snood.
0 Replies
 
 

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