Is Capital Punishment a Solution?

edgarblythe wrote:

They have been executing prisoners for thousands of years. Has it deterred heinous crimes? I think not. Just gives a taste of revenge to the bloodthirsty. And, relatives of the victims often feel some justification. If they did not convict the wrong persons at times, I would not care about the topic. A new argument in support of executions is, "We now have DNA to determine guilt." Well, DNA is only a factor in a percentage of cases, not all of them.

Some people would always do the right thing, even if there were no penalty for doing the wrong thing. Some people would always commit crimes, no matter what the penalty for them. But most people will be influenced by the threat of consequences, and it at to these people that the threat of punishment is directed.

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Does it factor into your thinking at all that stats show no deterrence?

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In the case of Saddam, who was a monster, he will now be consigned to history. Keeping him alive, IMO, would serve no useful purpose to society.
I think that there are some people, who have gone well beyond the rules of civility and decency, who need to be removed from the ranks of civilized society.

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The studies that have shown capital punishment to be no deterrent to the crimes it is used to punish are not referring to ridding humanity of megamonsters like Hitler or Saddaam, but just crime in the US in general.

Two different subjects.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
I don't think anyone proposes it as a solution, rather, as a deterrent.

When you say "anyone" do you include closet queers who live in Michigan? Just wondering...

If you are referring to me, then you must be George W. Bush.

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snood wrote:

The studies that have shown capital punishment to be no deterrent to the crimes it is used to punish are not referring to ridding humanity of megamonsters like Hitler or Saddaam, but just crime in the US in general.

Two different subjects.

I think part of the problem is the amount of time it takes to punish someone in this country. The average person will sit on deathrow for 20 years before they are put to death. I don't think that scares someone. So it doesn't work as a deterent. If the process were shorter then it would be different.

People like the fact that DNA gets people out of deathrow but the fact that it could be used to expidet the death penalty isn't so appealing to them. It works both ways, what can be used to free you should also be used to punish you.

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Baldimo wrote:

snood wrote:
The studies that have shown capital punishment to be no deterrent to the crimes it is used to punish are not referring to ridding humanity of megamonsters like Hitler or Saddaam, but just crime in the US in general.

Two different subjects.

I think part of the problem is the amount of time it takes to punish someone in this country. The average person will sit on deathrow for 20 years before they are put to death. I don't think that scares someone. So it doesn't work as a deterent. If the process were shorter then it would be different.

People like the fact that DNA gets people out of deathrow but the fact that it could be used to expidet the death penalty isn't so appealing to them. It works both ways, what can be used to free you should also be used to punish you.

That's not the only thing that "works both ways". If you defend the justice system as it exists - with all its bureaucracy and delays - when it works in favor of a person or cause you support, then you have to accept it as it is when it doesn't seem just in dealing with those you condemn.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

In the case of Saddam, who was a monster, he will now be consigned to history. Keeping him alive, IMO, would serve no useful purpose to society.
I think that there are some people, who have gone well beyond the rules of civility and decency, who need to be removed from the ranks of civilized society.

Putting someone in jail is removing them from the ranks.

A lifetime sentence for Saddam would have demonstrated the best facets of humanity, and of much of the American culture. Putting him to death shows zero advancement in morality since the 1500's.

He should have been given life in prison PRECISELY BECAUSE he was so bad. A less civilized nation would put him to death as a vengeance, a more civilized society would not have.

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snood wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
snood wrote:
The studies that have shown capital punishment to be no deterrent to the crimes it is used to punish are not referring to ridding humanity of megamonsters like Hitler or Saddaam, but just crime in the US in general.

Two different subjects.

I think part of the problem is the amount of time it takes to punish someone in this country. The average person will sit on deathrow for 20 years before they are put to death. I don't think that scares someone. So it doesn't work as a deterent. If the process were shorter then it would be different.

People like the fact that DNA gets people out of deathrow but the fact that it could be used to expidet the death penalty isn't so appealing to them. It works both ways, what can be used to free you should also be used to punish you.

That's not the only thing that "works both ways". If you defend the justice system as it exists - with all its bureaucracy and delays - when it works in favor of a person or cause you support, then you have to accept it as it is when it doesn't seem just in dealing with those you condemn.

I don't accept our justice system as it sits. We are too tough in certain areas and tough in others. Take the "War on Drugs" as an example. I don't think we should be putting people in jail for a dime bag of pot. Pot isn't a destructive force to society like heroin or crack is. We put people in jail for petty drug charges but let people who murder others off with only 4 years in jail. I think that is a little lopsided. We have people who have been picked up on DUI's more then twice but they are still on the streets. We have child molesters who are on the streets with more then 1 offence on their records and we aren't allowed to track these repeat offenders or keep them from harming our children because some lawyer out there seems to think the civil rights of a child molester is more important then the futures of our children. Judges let these people off with such light sentences that they don't fear getting caught again. There needs to be a major change in our justice system and for me that includes a way in which the death penalty is carried out.

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snood wrote:

Does it factor into your thinking at all that stats show no deterrence?

What stats exactly? Conducted by whom? How? I've heard that, but it seems just on the face of it false.

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bisca wrote:

The Vatican advances thludricrous notion that fetuses are potential life--How ridiculous.

Well, a fetus is a life; for, what else is being aborted, if not a life? However, is it a person or a potential person? That is the what the debate is all about.

As for the the topic, or rather the question posed in the title of this thread:

Yes, capital punishment is a solution, but an immoral one, IMO.

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I dont believe in capitol punishment . Collectively we should be more enlightened. It certainly has never been a deterrent. I think if Bushie and Blair were to hang for their war crimes that might just be deterrent to future mass murderers ruling in the UK and America.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:
Does it factor into your thinking at all that stats show no deterrence?

What stats exactly? Conducted by whom? How? I've heard that, but it seems just on the face of it false.

Even as the use of the death penalty continued to decline in the United States, the number of murders and the national murder rate dropped in 2004. According to the recently released FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2004, the nation's murder rate fell by 3.3%, declining to 5.5 murders per 100,000 people in 2004.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=1705#STATES%20WITH%20THE%20DEATH%20PENALTY%20V.%20STATES%20WITHOUT

Most recently, according to a survey by the New York Times, states without the death penalty have lower homicides rates than states with the death penalty. Comparisons show that the average murder rate per 10,000 population in 1999 was 5.5 among death penalty states versus 3.6 among non-death penalty states (DPIC, 2001).

http://www.msccsp.org/publications/death.html

The Death Penalty Is Not a Deterrent
A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

FBI data showed that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/i/homiciderates.gif

The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime.

Rather than show evidence of any deterrent effect, research studies reveal that the death penalty has a brutalizing effect:
Researchers did a comparison of murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder in Oklahoma between 1989 and 1991, and found a significant increase in murders (both felony and non-felony) after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
Researchers Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides in 293-paired counties. Pairings were based on: geographic location and demographic and economic variables; a shared contiguous border; differing use of capital punishment. The authors found higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the South repeatedly has the highest murder rate. In 1999, it was the only region with a murder rate above the national rate. The South accounts for 80% of executions. The Northeast, which accounts for less than 1% of all executions in the U.S., has the lowest murder rate.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/deterrence.html

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http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9430/deathpenaltygraph22vn.jpg

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You wanna link that, O'Bill?

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bisca wrote:

I am totally and completely opposed to killings of any sort. That is one of the main reasons why I am a vegetarian. I agree with the Vatican. However, the Vatican goes much too far when it tramples on the God giv en rights of women to control their bodies. The Vatican advances thludricrous notion that fetuses are potential life--How ridiculous.

Saddam was alive. He should not have been excuted. A fetus is just a clump of cells. The Vatican goes too far--as usual.

As someone said before, capital punishment is effective, much more effective than locking someone up, but the ethical side is completely different.

However, whether or not one believes in capital punishment, I think that the killing of Suddam was completely justified. Do not forget of the great pain and suffering of the people he killed, tortured and abused, and the families of those people. If you tried and say that Saddam should not have been executed to any of these people, they would think of you as cruel and heartless. He does not deserve to live.

Besides, if you really care about that murderer, he said he was ready to die. Are you saying that dispite his wishes he still should not have been killed?

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I would much rather die than spend my life in a hell hole.

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snood wrote:

You wanna link that, O'Bill?

I found it HERE, snood.

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Snood, I had that image on imageshack.us. If you track it down; you'll find the information it contains verifiable. I've been through this with Joe, Ad Nauseum, and remember bookmarking the appropriate fact pages on my laptop... but that currently is at the accountant's so I can't access it. For what it's worth; Joe disputed the relevance of the stats, from an angle of cause and effect, not the stats themselves because they are solid.

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snood -- I wonder if all those murders in Louisiana are do to the terrible pollution of the chemical industry or to the mud brought down by the Mississippi.

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Is Capital Punishment a Solution?

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