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Breaking: Jeb Bush Temporarily Halts Florida Executions

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:27 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- To me, the kinds of criminals that I have described above, are beyond any sort of rehabilitation. They have caused immense suffering to their victims, and, IMO do not deserve any consideration. I have a problem with taxpayers having to pay to keep these monsters alive. The sooner that they are no longer in existence, the easier it will be for the loved ones of the victim to gain some closure.

How do you know that all people being executed have in fact committed the crimes they are executed for? Judges are people. People make mistakes, and they react to incentives. Currently incentives are set by climate favorable of executions and not particularly curious about investigating wrongful executions after the fact. Further incentives are being set by the fact that capital punishment lets judges kill and bury their mistakes instead of correcting them.

Given this environment, I find it incredibly naive of you to assume that everyone being executed is in fact a heinous murderer.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:31 am
If there are to be executions (which I oppose) they should be public.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:33 am
Thomas- Like I said before, I believe that the evidence has to be beyond a shadow of a doubt. DNA has enable police departments to make far more accurate assessment of evidence now than in the past. If there is a slightest doubt, I don't think that the death penalty is appropriate.

I think that if my concepts were utilized, there would be far LESS people on death row, but those who are, really belonged there.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:34 am
Well, here goes anyway.
While I agree that the worst such offenders could be killed off and my conscience would be clear, it is the imperfection of a process ordered by fallible and not always honorable people that turned me against the death penalty. Sure, I think the guy that murdered my brother should have been killed. He was despicable and had no redeeming qualities, and, there was no doubt he did it. But, I would not vote for the death penalty still, knowing how overzealous prosecuters and judges are so strong willed to convict; innocent persons are all too often railroaded and executed. In each case, it was "proven" the person was guilty. The victims' families were satisfied justice was done. The only way to preserve the rights of these, the additional victims of the crimes, is to abolish the death penalty.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:05 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- Like I said before, I believe that the evidence has to be beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What if proving an extra-heinus capital crime beyond the shadow of a doubt costs more than locking the offender away for life? (It currently does.) Then what happens to your argument about "taxpayers having to pay ..."? Wouldn't it suggest that life sentences give taxpayers better justice for their money?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:15 pm
Thomas- I understand your point about the cost, but I think that there is a problem with the justice system. There is no reason why appeals have to take years, and often decades, to go through its natural progression.

If a defendant is (in the US at least) entitled to a speedy trial, unless there are special contingencies, appeals need to have a cut-off date.

My guts grind when I hear about murderers getting extension after extensions of their trials and appeals. IMO, in most cases it is simply a ploy by the attorneys, who are simply looking for a way to delay. The more the delay, the more chance that witnesses die, memories fade, and that the results of a trial really has less, and not more relevence.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:21 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- I understand your point about the cost, but I think that there is a problem with the justice system.

Can you name any justice system elsewhere in the world that manages to prove capital crimes with enough certainty to justify executions, yet does it cheaper than the cost of life imprisonment?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:33 pm
Thomas wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- I understand your point about the cost, but I think that there is a problem with the justice system.

Can you name any justice system elsewhere in the world that manages to prove capital crimes with enough certainty to justify executions, yet does it cheaper than the cost of life imprisonment?


Which goes back to my original thesis. I beleive that certain crimes deserve execution, but the ones that do are so cut and dry that there does not have to be much machinations of the justice system. The problem is, that when there are protracted appeals, you get into the phenomena of attorneys getting clients off on ridiculous technicalities, and that, to me that is not justice.

Like I said before, I could see a much smaller group on death row, but those people would be executed swiftly.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:55 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Thomas- I understand your point about the cost, but I think that there is a problem with the justice system.

Can you name any justice system elsewhere in the world that manages to prove capital crimes with enough certainty to justify executions, yet does it cheaper than the cost of life imprisonment?


Which goes back to my original thesis. I beleive that certain crimes deserve execution, but the ones that do are so cut and dry that there does not have to be much machinations of the justice system. The problem is, that when there are protracted appeals, you get into the phenomena of attorneys getting clients off on ridiculous technicalities, and that, to me that is not justice.

Like I said before, I could see a much smaller group on death row, but those people would be executed swiftly.

There are plenty of countries in the world that don't have protracted appeals like the US does. Some of them, like China, would no doubt fail the due process guarantees avoiding wrongful executions that you require. Others of them, like continental Europe, have no capital punishment at all, or aren't applying it. Given this, my question to you is simply this: If the nice, clean, fair variant of capital punishment you demand is realistically possible, why can't you name any country in the world that actually has it?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 02:28 pm
Well, I can move on to ther threads, I guess.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 02:37 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Well, I can move on to ther threads, I guess.

Sorry Edgar, I didn't mean to ignore you. I just don't have any interesting comment to your posts here except to say I agree with you.
0 Replies
 
 

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