parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2007 05:14 pm
Yeah that Poor Jesson, convicted by the evil government and a jury of his peers that didn't believe his lying ass.


This from the IRS website
Quote:
Orange County Business Owner Sentenced to 27 Months in Prison for Submitting False Claim for Federal Employment Taxes

On April 3, 2006, in Los Angeles, CA, George Henry "Nick" Jesson was sentenced to 27 months in prison for submitting a false claim to the Internal Revenue Service that fraudulently sought a $61,388 refund of employment taxes. In addition to the prison term, Jesson was ordered to pay restitution of $215,454 to the IRS. Jesson admitted to falsely reporting to the IRS that he did not pay his employees any wages in 1997. However, his company, No Time Delay Electronics, paid $177,083.22 to Jesson, $273,236.20 to his wife and also paid wages to other employees. Jesson claimed a refund for all of the employment taxes paid by the company. The total refund requested for the employees was $215,454, of which $61,388 was the employment tax withholding from the wages of Jesson and his wife. Jesson took the $215,454 refund and used the money for his own personal use. Before filing a false Form 941c for No Time Delay Electronics for 1997, he unsuccessfully tried to get a refund of $61,388 (the taxes withheld on the wages paid to Jesson and his wife) by filing an IRS Form 1040X, an amended federal income tax return, for himself and his wife. In this filing, Jesson claimed that wages were not taxable income.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2007 05:48 pm
Quote:
Nonsense Joe. Hylton was every bit as accepted as the 16th up until Pollock. Even then it was only 5 to 4 and the dissenters were bitter about it.


Hylton - 1795
Pollock - 1895
16th amendment proposed - 1909 adopted - 1913

The 16th was passed in response to Pollock as Joe pointed out. There is no need to revisit Pollock since the 16th took the argument away.

While it is possible to argue that a law is unconstitutional as was done in Pollock, one can't do the same thing with a constitutional amendment.

Quote:
Especially after your partner here accused me of making it up... all despite the clearly labeled Source. It's tiresome enough trying to defend an unlikely proposition, without have to wade through the myriad of insults and condescension.

LOL.. I see it is OK for you to accuse me of making things up but it is wrong when I respond in kind. You keep accusing me of arrogance Bill. You might want to check the mirror when you start talking about insults and condescension. I took your accusation in a light hearted fashion and responded in the same fashion. You can't take a joke at your expense it seems.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2007 06:06 pm
parados wrote:
LOL.. I see it is OK for you to accuse me of making things up but it is wrong when I respond in kind. You keep accusing me of arrogance Bill. You might want to check the mirror when you start talking about insults and condescension. I took your accusation in a light hearted fashion and responded in the same fashion. You can't take a joke at your expense it seems.
I wasn't joking; I was stating a fact. You did make it up. I, on the other hand, at worst, am guilty of quoting an erroneous source. These incidents have nothing in common besides your childish need to forward the "I know you are but what am I" argument. Even as you accused me of making something up, you admitted you were lying about it... because of the clearly referenced source. You are your own source for your erroneous statement, which means, indeed, you made it up.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2007 09:24 pm
I'll have to remember in the future that :wink: means you are serious Bill.

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 01:26 am
Parados, I should have said "wasn't just joking", because my point was indisputably valid. Your accusation, on the other hand, was a bald faced lie in a childish attempt to trade tit for tat, only lacking in foundation of any kind. Was I really supposed to see humor in your groundless accusation? Rolling Eyes


parados wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:

In the mean time, you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. From FindLaw about Hylton:
Quote:
Moreover, each of the judges advanced the opinion that the direct tax clause should be restricted to capitation taxes and taxes on land, or that at most, it might cover a general tax on the aggregate or mass of things that generally pervade all the States
Clearly, you flat out made this up:
parados wrote:
Since Hylton a direct tax has only meant a tax on real estate. No other possible meaning.
Since you have the backing of A2K's favorite attorney Joefromchicago, the IRS and the DOJ along with most of the Courts of the land in your favor, you shouldn't have to resort to making things up.:wink:
I was parphrasing Brushaber where it says..
Quote:
that in any event the class of direct taxes included only taxes directly levied on real estate because of its ownership.
When you go read the rulings in Hylton they include capitation and property.
I read the Hylton ruling, and quoted from it to expose the falsity you made up, and have yet to admit to. How can you sit there now and arrogantly pretend you are teaching me something I just used to blow your false claim out of the water?

Hylton had nothing to do with "Real Estate". It was a carriage business fighting a tax, on the grounds that it was a Direct Tax. It was erroneously ruled an Indirect Tax... an error that was admitted and corrected in Pollock. That's what FindLaw was referring to by ''a century of error''. From this, it is reasonable to conclude that carriages for business were subject to a Direct Tax according to the Pollock decision. NOT REAL ESTATE. So then comes the 16th amendment to correct this error right? So by the time Brushaber makes it in front of the SC, we now know that businesses CAN be taxed without apportionment... but Justice White makes clear that Direct Taxes still require apportionment, right? Neither Brushaber, Pollock nor Hylton had anything to do with the wages of the common man. Nothing.

I would like anyone to explain; what is Indirect about an Income Tax that covers virtually every adult in the United States? Anyone? I can not even fathom a more Direct Tax. It surely pervades all of the States and an assessment most certainly intervenes… as is, in fact, required by the IRS.

From Hylton,
Quote:
Moreover, each of the judges advanced the opinion that the direct tax clause should be restricted to capitation taxes and taxes on land, or that at most, it might cover a general tax on the aggregate or mass of things that generally pervade all the States, especially if an assessment should intervene, while Justice Paterson, who had been a member of the Federal Convention, testified to his recollection that the principal purpose of the provision had been to allay the fear of the Southern States lest their Negroes and land should be subjected to a specific tax.

To what precisely were our Founding Father's referring when they made the rule…
Quote:
[4] No capitation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken.
?
We know a capitation Tax is a fixed amount or head tax that applies to every citizen and that the Founding Fathers obviously considered this to be a Direct Tax. We know they wanted Direct Taxes to be apportioned according to census. Surely this implies, at least, that Direct Taxes are taxes that will essentially affect every taxpayer. What fits better in this category than an Income Tax that affects every American? Keep in mind, back in the days of Brushaber, the Income Tax fell very, very far short of affecting every American, so it is perfectly reasonable to view this as an Indirect Tax on business… while still considering a Tax on virtually every American a Direct Tax.

I'm tempted to go off on a tangent now about the Founding Father's fixation with property owners and speculate what definitional differences likely ensued… but I've had my fill of ridicule for now.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 07:43 am
In light of all your research Bill, please explain why this is correct..

Quote:
The issue is actually quite simple. A direct tax is direct. The tax falls directly on the person or the thing taxed. The one who is obligated to pay such a tax is not in a position to shift it to another.

On the contrary, an indirect tax may either be avoided or shifted to another. A trucking company shifts the excise tax on fuel to the customer who ships his product by way of the trucking company. The excise tax on cigarette is avoided by choosing not to smoke. How is the wage earner going to shift the taxes deducted out of his paycheck to another? He can't. Therefore the tax imposed directly by the government on the wage earner is a direct tax. A direct tax is direct.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 08:31 am
Quote:
Neither Brushaber, Pollock nor Hylton had anything to do with the wages of the common man. Nothing.


From Pollock
Quote:
We have considered the act only in respect of the tax on income derived from real estate, and from invested personal property, and have not commented on so much of it as bears on gains or profits from business, privileges, or employments, in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such.

Quote:

It is elementary that the same statute may be in part constitutional and in part unconstitutional, and, if the parts are wholly independent of each other, that which is constitutional may stand, while that which is unconstitutional will be rejected. And in the case before us there is no question as to the validity of this act, except sections 27 to 37, inclusive,

Quote:
If that be stricken out, and also the income from all invested personal property, bonds, stocks, investments of all kinds, it is obvious that by a r the largest part of the anticipated revenue would be eliminated, and this would leave the burden of the tax to be borne by professions, trades, employments, or vocations; and in that way what was intended as a tax on capital would remain, in substance, a tax on occupations and labor. We cannot believe that such was the intention of congress.

The court said that "without question" the income tax on trades, employments, and vocations was constitutional in Pollock.



As for your contention that Hylton was admitted to be in error and overturned in Pollock, this is what the court has to say about Hylton

Quote:
What was decided in the Hylton Case was, then, that a tax on carriages was an excise, and therefore an indirect tax. The contention of Mr. Madison in the house was only so far disturbed by it that the court classified it where he himself would have held it constitutional, and he subsequently, as president, approved a similar act (3 Stat. 40). The contention of Mr. Hamilton in the Federalist was not disturbed by it in the least. In our judgment, the construction given to the constitution by the authors of the Federalist (the five numbers contributed by Chief Justice Jay related to the danger from foreign force and influence, and to the treaty-making power) should not and cannot be disregarded.
I read it as the judges in Pollock saying because Madison and Hamilton were both OK with the carriage tax being an excise tax they see no reason to disagree. Perhaps you can point out where they said the carriage tax was "erroneously ruled an Indirect Tax."

You shouldn't read things into statements that aren't there Bill. One might think you are making stuff up. :wink:
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 08:55 am
parados wrote:
In light of all your research Bill, please explain why this is correct..

Quote:
The issue is actually quite simple. A direct tax is direct. The tax falls directly on the person or the thing taxed. The one who is obligated to pay such a tax is not in a position to shift it to another.

On the contrary, an indirect tax may either be avoided or shifted to another. A trucking company shifts the excise tax on fuel to the customer who ships his product by way of the trucking company. The excise tax on cigarette is avoided by choosing not to smoke. How is the wage earner going to shift the taxes deducted out of his paycheck to another? He can't. Therefore the tax imposed directly by the government on the wage earner is a direct tax. A direct tax is direct.
Perhaps you'd be good enough to show me how it's incorrect. It certainly appears logical, does it not?

And precisely how do you interpret "century of error" in regards to Hylton to Pollock?

I see you're still reaching to paint me with charge I proved you guilty of... still without merit... still without admitting your obvious error... and amazingly still thinking you're being clever in the process. Is incite really that much more fun than insight? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Tryagain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 09:03 am
I am dismayed at the implication of the allegations of deception and impropriety in the arena of academic standards. The severity of censure must in the circumstances be severe. However, it is to be hoped that a reasonable explanation may be forthcoming.


At least one of the employers named in the Times article has written a letter to the IRS Commissioner requesting a meeting to discuss the matter. Excerpts from that letter is presented below.

Nick Jesson's (NTD Electronics') demand for dialogue was UNANSWERED by the IRS, so he is now going public. The IRS's failure to respond follows a series of attempts to get government officials, including the IRS, Congress and the White House, to participate in conferences to publicly explain findings and refute allegations by numerous tax researchers and former IRS agents such as the allegations made at the top of this message.

Tax researchers recognize that the actions of the employers are supported by provisions in the Tax Code. For example: A withholding agent is only required to withhold from foreigners (Code Sections 7701, 1461, 1441-3). Tax researchers have noted for years that a statement of citizenship given to an employer/withholding agent precludes the withholding of tax, as there is no authority in the Code to withhold money from a citizen or resident of the U.S. unless that person authorizes it. If the worker submits a statement of citizenship, the employer, as a withholding agent, is relieved of duty to withhold income taxes, since those apply to nonresident aliens.

Tax researchers have asserted there is no law that a U.S. citizen must have a social security number (SSN) or that an employer must have an employer identification number (EIN), or that either of them must participate in the social security program ( i.e., employment or FICA taxes under Subtitle C). An employer who does participate in the social security program is required to give a W-4 form to a worker, but is not required to get it back, and the worker is not required to fill it out and return it, unless that worker wants to participate in the social security program. Absent a W-4 signed by the worker, an employer is not authorized by law to withhold and submit to the IRS money from the worker for employment taxes. Further, a person without a SSN number would have no taxable income. All this has been well-documented and verified by numerous letters from any number of Social Security Administration officials.

Section 1441(a) and (b) state that interest, dividends, rent, salaries, wages, profits, etc., are "income" when received on behalf of, or paid to, a nonresident alien or other foreign entity. And courts have ruled that profits of corporations are "income." But there is no provision in the Code stating that receipts of citizens or residents of the country are "income." Thus, a citizen's own receipts are not "gross income" and are not, therefore, "taxable income" under the Code. Income refers to property derived from activity involving the exercise of a government-granted privilege.

Section 61 of the Code has the definition of gross income as "all income from whatever source derived," and then a list of 15 "items." Tax researchers have recognized that the "items" listed are not the same as "sources" of income that are taxable. The sources are actually to be found in a more remote part of the Code at Section 861 (or section 1.861-8(f)(1) of the regulations). They consist of five "foreign" sources. In previous versions of the Code, the relationship and distinction between the "items" and the "sources" was not disguised or separated by distance in the Code. This part of the Code is an important aspect of the position taken by the employers who have stopped withholding.

I think that wins the argument for the good guys, if not; I feel these points need further consideration:


The income tax laws in the Civil war were on wages. While most wage earners were exempted because the average yearly wage was less than the $600 threshold for taxes. The tax was on wages which are also known as salaries.

http://www.tax.org/Museum/1861-1865.htm

To the unskilled Laborer in 1862, $600 equates to $88,981.13 in 2005 Dollars(Source). Obviously, the Tax was intended for business, NOT the every day worker.(Even in 1909; $600 represented $56,819.28 which is clearly not your average laborer).

The act exempted businesses worth less than $600 from value added and receipts taxes. Taxes were withheld from the salaries of government employees as well as from dividends paid to corporations (the same method of collection later employed during World War II). In addition, the "sin" excise taxes imposed in the 1862 act were designed to fall most heavily on products purchased by the affluent.

Thaddeus Stevens lauded the progressivity of the tax system:

"While the rich and the thrifty will be obliged to contribute largely from the abundance of their means . . . no burdens have been imposed on the industrious laborer and mechanic . . . The food of the poor is untaxed; and no one will be affected by the provisions of this bill whose living depends solely on his manual labor."

That is pretty clear is it not?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 09:41 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Since you refuse to hear the argument in it's entirety, I'm forced to feed it to you peicemail which isn't nearly as effective.

I probably understand the anti-tax position better than you do, so don't feel obliged to summarize or parcel out your argument.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Nonsense Joe. Hylton was every bit as accepted as the 16th up until Pollock. Even then it was only 5 to 4 and the dissenters were bitter about it.

As parados has correctly pointed out, the 16th amendment came after the Pollock decision. Furthermore, Pollock held that congress could not levy a tax on income derived from real or personal property without apportionment: it specifically refused to rule on whether a tax on wages was constitutional or not. Consequently, the only case that specifically ruled on that issue, between 1864 and the adoption of the 16th amendment, was Springer, which held that the Civil War income tax was constitutional.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Neither, the Source, is clearly NOT from a Tax Protester nor did I make it up and therefore your sighting it as evidence of my lack of understanding is offensive.

Well, the fact that you cited it, without qualification or reservation, suggests that you accepted it. Why you would do so, whether from a tax protester or someone else, without checking to make sure it was accurate is strictly your business. But if it turns out to be wrong, then I can't quite see how you aren't wrong as well.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Especially after your partner here accused me of making it up... all despite the clearly labeled Source. It's tiresome enough trying to defend an unlikely proposition, without have to wade through the myriad of insults and condescension.

I have no partner here and I have not been following closely your squabbles with parados.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
More faulty conclusions on your part. A serious lack of understanding? In your obvious desire to condescend, you've decided to ignore the fact that I sourced my information and had no reason to verify it as the source is certainly not biased towards tax protesters. In yours and Parados's bias against anyone who even listens to them, however, it seems you will stop at nothing to discredit, I submit, to your own discredit. If I'm supposed to chase every quote I see back to it's source, why did you explain that you don't need to? And why in this exact case was it too much to simply click where you saw the mysterious blue word: Source?

I'm not sure where I said I don't have to check on my own sources. But even if I don't check on a source that I use, I take the source as part of my own argument and accept that, if it turns out to be wrong, then I am wrong as well. I don't permit myself the privilege of being right while all of my evidence is wrong.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 10:24 am
Joe, does THIS look even remotely like a protester website? Your brazen post appeared immediately after Parados's, both condescending as hell, for quoting a source that appears to be as neutral as one could be. Parados went to far as to suggest I made up the quoted information, while you were satisfied stating you didn't know where it came from despite the clearly labeled "source" ... all for what could, at worst, be described as an innocent mistake. You sit and argue that you know an argument you haven't bothered to even hear, yet chastise me for referencing what most certainly appears to be an expert source. Confused
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 10:49 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Joe, does THIS look even remotely like a protester website? Your brazen post appeared immediately after Parados's, both condescending as hell, for quoting a source that appears to be as neutral as one could be. Parados went to far as to suggest I made up the quoted information, while you were satisfied stating you didn't know where it came from despite the clearly labeled "source" ... all for what could, at worst, be described as an innocent mistake. You sit and argue that you know an argument you haven't bothered to even hear, yet chastise me for referencing what most certainly appears to be an expert source. Confused

Get over it, BILL. You cited a website. That website turned out to be wrong. If that doesn't cause you to reevaluate your position on that particular issue, then that's your affair.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 11:05 am
I'm not holding a grudge, JOE. One erroneous quote is hardly cause to abandon my position as it didn't form based on that quote in the first place. But I suppose one who claims to know argument's they haven't heard from others; may have some extra sensory perception that allows them to see my positions better than I do too.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 11:24 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I'm not holding a grudge, JOE. One erroneous quote is hardly cause to abandon my position as it didn't form based on that quote in the first place. But I suppose one who claims to know argument's they haven't heard from others; may have some extra sensory perception that allows them to see my positions better than I do too.

Let me be clear: I said that I understand their arguments better than you do, and I'm quite confident that I do. That's because I understand the legal foundations for their arguments, which also means that I understand why they're all wrong. You, in contrast, have adequately demonstrated that you don't understand the legal foundations of their arguments, which is why you still cling to the belief that they might be right.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 11:36 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Since you have the backing of A2K's favorite attorney Joefromchicago, ....


Hold on ..... did we have a vote on this?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 12:01 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Since you have the backing of A2K's favorite attorney Joefromchicago, ....


Hold on ..... did we have a vote on this?

Yes. You lost.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 12:08 pm
I believe, Mr. Mayor, that it is an immutable law of the universe that Irish-American candidates in Chicago never lose . . .
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 01:03 pm
Setanta wrote:
I believe, Mr. Mayor, that it is an immutable law of the universe that Irish-American candidates in Chicago never lose . . .

True dat.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 01:15 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Since you have the backing of A2K's favorite attorney Joefromchicago, ....


Hold on ..... did we have a vote on this?


No, but I vote you are nice Ticomaya and Setanta should be.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2007 01:19 pm
Oh hi OCCOM BILL. I just noticed you were up there. Looking good today. Not that you others don't, it is just I do not know you.
0 Replies
 
 

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