Tryagain
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 05:24 am
Scofflaw 'to nullify' tax plight

by Kristen Senz
Union Leader

Plainfield resident Ed Brown, who along with his wife was convicted of multiple felony tax evasion charges this week, said yesterday he and a group of legal analysts are preparing to take legal action "to nullify the whole problem."

"We're working on legal matters and actions," Brown said during a telephone interview. "This court is totally off the wall for its actions, and the record will show that clearly." [Full story]


FLASH! The IRS is absolutely right! In a very recent story published here, the IRS revealed to the media exactly what sections of Title 26 make Americans liable for the income tax, as follows:
The requirements are "clearly set forth" in the Internal Revenue section of U.S. Code, according to a November 2006 publication entitled, "The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments." The article specifically cites sections 6011(a), 6012 and 6072.

Section 6012 (a), in particular, says "every individual" who does not meet certain exemptions shall make "returns with respect to taxable income."

Further down, section 6151 says the person making the return "shall pay such tax at the time and place fixed for filing the return."
Wow! The IRS was right all along!

Well . . . except for a couple of huge, non-frivolous details. Please look up the meaning of the term "taxable income" as defined in the relevant law. And while you're poring over all that tax law, you might dip into the several Supreme Court decisions that clarify the effect the 16th Amendment had on the constitutional prohibition of an unapportioned direct tax. And look into the meaning of "employer," "employee," "person" and all the other common words that are precisely defined in the relevant law.

I don't think Title 26, the related regulations, the Supreme Court cases, and the United States Constitution are too frivolous to read, do you? Just because they don't teach this in government school doesn't mean you can't read it for yourself, does it.


Update: 01/20/07

Supporters say raid on tax evader may turn violent

by Philip Elliott
The Associated Press

CONCORD - A former militia man convicted of tax evasion prepared for a government siege Friday as his supporters called for more people to show up at his fortress-like home and fight his arrest.

Ed Brown said he was ready for a swarm of federal agents to descend on his property to execute an arrest warrant. His wife and his supporters said they believe a confrontation could turn violent.

U.S. marshals said they have no plans to attack Ed Brown's home in Plainfield or act quickly on a warrant for his arrest.

Some supporters said government aggression could lead to another Waco, Ruby Ridge, or Oklahoma City bombing.


This is it folks. It may go on for many, many months, or years. It could be over in a matter of hours if you do nothing. This is the call for Americans to make the stand. What will you do? You have been talking for years. Is now the time? Is now the time to say to the government, "NO MORE"? Or will you stand by again and do nothing? I would like to see Ed Brown one day, alive.

God bless the fighters for freedom and liberty.

LIVE FREE or Die! LIBERTY in our Lifetime!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 07:26 am
Reading through the wealth of information and links provided on this thread (thank you guys), and the myriad of sources found through Google searches during the arguments; I've come to some conclusions.

1. Our founding fathers never anticipated an Income Tax that would burden every productive citizen of the United States.

2. The authors of our constitution apparently thought Federal Taxation would be derived from Excise Taxes and Property Taxes and laid out rules to ensure the fairness of each.

3. Prior the 16th Amendment, Income Taxes were unconstitutional because they rightly fell into the category of Direct Taxation and were not apportioned accordingly. Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so… and unfortunately our fore fathers utterly failed to define it themselves.

4. SC Justices recognized this, probably to a man, but had no choice but to pretend it wasn't so or the United States government would become insolvent with debt for its ill gotten gains. Over and over; the Justices reasoned correctly that apportionment of an Income Tax would create absurd burdens on citizens of the less affluent several states. They knowingly perverted the meaning of the word "direct", so they could avoid admitting that Income Tax itself fell into a category not covered by the Constitution of the United States.

5. The opinion in Springer, relying heavily on the opinion in Hylton, that the constitution couldn't have intended apportionment be applied to an Income Tax is obviously correct. What the opinion utterly failed to address in both cases; was whether the Income Tax itself may have been what was never intended by the constitution. This I believe to be the case.

6. The 16th amendment, whether it was legally ratified or not, was created in recognition of this constitutional shortcoming. I believe it is intentionally vague because its purpose was to simultaneously create the ability to legally collect an Income Tax, while not admitting that it lacked the constitutional right to collect these same Taxes in years past (this would open the government up to enormous liabilities that it obviously could not afford). This is the reason for all the dancing around the term "direct", both in the SC prior to the 16th, and especially in the Congressional Debates over the 16th, and ultimately the reason for its exclusion in the final draft of the 16th.

7. The 16th amendment in effect, created a new form of taxation that hitherto didn't exist constitutionally, since it was, in fact, a form of Direct Taxation with no need for apportionment. The problem remains that in legislation's attempt to disguise the fact that the constitution hitherto didn't provide for such a Tax, they failed to comprehensively create one when they chose to omit the word "Direct".

8. At the time of the passing of 16th amendment; the intention remained to Tax the Incomes of the affluent, without admitting that previous Taxes to do the same were unconstitutional. At this point; this intention is clear by the ramifications of the omnipresent exemption amounts always having been sufficiently high to safeguard the common laborer from the Income Tax. In light of this condition; it is easier to argue that the Tax itself was more of an excise Tax on business, than it was a Direct Tax on every American. This is, I believe, the opinion in Brushaber, and the reason the SC was again able to dance around the term "Direct Tax".

9. It is abundantly clear in hindsight, that the exemption ($600) intended to shield the common laborer from paying this supposed Excise Tax, apparently intended for business, eroded into impotence with inflation (rapidly, on account of the abandonment of the Classical Gold Standard), resulting in effect; of Direct Taxation of every American's Income. I submit this is likely precisely what legislators intended, but refused to actually quantify legally or acknowledge in any way, because they knew, or at least suspected, the American Public would punish them in their outrage. They had sold an Excise Tax that only affected the affluent, but affectively transitioned to a Direct Tax on everyone.

10. To this day the IRS, the DOJ, the Supreme Court, and the overall Legislative body collectively continue to pretend this legislative fraud never took place, out of necessity. How could they do otherwise? An utter lack of reasonable potential remedy forces each of these branches of government to essentially self sustain with straight denial. So paramount is this denial; they've enacted protective measures to thorough persecute and prosecute anyone and everyone who dares challenge the basis upon which this fraud was perpetrated against the American People.

11. In retrospect, it is clear the government did what it needed to do to self sustain. No one could reasonably argue that the Federal government could exist without funding, nor that the founding fathers didn't intend to provide them with avenues to obtain said funding. However, it is perfectly reasonable to presume that the founding fathers did not intend to allow for an overly invasive, ultimately totalitarian means of obtaining it… such as our current system of Internal Revenue. This may very well be the reason it wasn't covered by the original constitution in the first place. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

12. It is a FACT that IRS rules effectively circumvent the 5th amendment by forcing citizens to provide evidence against themselves. It is a FACT that the DOJ's enforcement of IRS rules effectively circumvents both the 5th and 14th amendments in that they utterly deny citizen's due process. There is NO presumption of innocence and, in fact, a citizen is presumed guilty until he can prove otherwise in a court of law… and even then he is hindered by cumbersomely expensive procedural rules and routinely denied hitherto sometimes effective defenses that protection measures have been legislated to prevent (frivolous, my A$$).

13. The United States of America can no more afford to admit their unconstitutional legislation today than they could in 1913… or during any of the SC cases of the past. Since there is no reasonable remedy for repair; the only thing we can do is accept the Internal Revenue with all it's constitutional shortcomings, or abandon it in favor of a system of taxation that both our founding fore fathers and the citizens of today would approved of. Details available HERE. :wink:
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 08:26 am
That should get a bunch of the crazies off the streets and into jails when they decide to defend Ed Brown.

I suggest they look up the posse comitatus and Gordon Kahl. The tax protestor movement isn't new. It was built on a faulty premise then. It is still faulty now.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:54 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Reading through the wealth of information and links provided on this thread (thank you guys), and the myriad of sources found through Google searches during the arguments; I've come to some conclusions.

1. Our founding fathers never anticipated an Income Tax that would burden every productive citizen of the United States.
I don't think that is true. They did consider it but decided any attempt to enforce it would be difficult.
Quote:

2. The authors of our constitution apparently thought Federal Taxation would be derived from Excise Taxes and Property Taxes and laid out rules to ensure the fairness of each.
No. they laid out a plan that allowed for all taxes. From Federalist 30
Quote:
What substitute can there be imagined for this ignis fatuus in finance, but that of permitting the national government to raise its own revenues by the ordinary methods of taxation authorized in every well-ordered constitution of civil government?
and from Fed 31
Quote:
the federal government must of necessity be invested with an unqualified power of taxation in the ordinary modes.

Quote:

3. Prior the 16th Amendment, Income Taxes were unconstitutional because they rightly fell into the category of Direct Taxation and were not apportioned accordingly. Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so… and unfortunately our fore fathers utterly failed to define it themselves.
This has been pointed out several times to you Bill as being flat out wrong. Income taxes on personal income from labor were found to be constitutional and an indirect tax.
Quote:

4. SC Justices recognized this, probably to a man, but had no choice but to pretend it wasn't so or the United States government would become insolvent with debt for its ill gotten gains. Over and over; the Justices reasoned correctly that apportionment of an Income Tax would create absurd burdens on citizens of the less affluent several states. They knowingly perverted the meaning of the word "direct", so they could avoid admitting that Income Tax itself fell into a category not covered by the Constitution of the United States.
Based on a faulty premise that the USSC ever ruled that income tax on income on labor was a direct tax. They have never ruled such and always ruled it was an indirect tax. The ONLY ruling concerns income from property in which it was ruled a direct tax.
Quote:

5. The opinion in Springer, relying heavily on the opinion in Hylton, that the constitution couldn't have intended apportionment be applied to an Income Tax is obviously correct. What the opinion utterly failed to address in both cases; was whether the Income Tax itself may have been what was never intended by the constitution. This I believe to be the case.
Read the Federalist papers before you make such faulty conclusions.
Quote:

6. The 16th amendment, whether it was legally ratified or not, was created in recognition of this constitutional shortcoming. I believe it is intentionally vague because its purpose was to simultaneously create the ability to legally collect an Income Tax, while not admitting that it lacked the constitutional right to collect these same Taxes in years past (this would open the government up to enormous liabilities that it obviously could not afford). This is the reason for all the dancing around the term "direct", both in the SC prior to the 16th, and especially in the Congressional Debates over the 16th, and ultimately the reason for its exclusion in the final draft of the 16th.
There was no dancing around direct vs indirect. Taxes on income from wages has always been indirect. Taxes on the professions and laborers existed at the time the constitution was written.
Quote:

7. The 16th amendment in effect, created a new form of taxation that hitherto didn't exist constitutionally, since it was, in fact, a form of Direct Taxation with no need for apportionment. The problem remains that in legislation's attempt to disguise the fact that the constitution hitherto didn't provide for such a Tax, they failed to comprehensively create one when they chose to omit the word "Direct".
Irrelevent. If we assume that income taxes are direct taxes then the 16th amendment clearly takes those taxes out of the earlier constitution and makes them taxable without reference to direct or indirect. This argument fails to take into account the wording of the 16th amendment. Direct and indirect don't matter once the constitution said that income can be taxed.
Quote:

8. At the time of the passing of 16th amendment; the intention remained to Tax the Incomes of the affluent, without admitting that previous Taxes to do the same were unconstitutional. At this point; this intention is clear by the ramifications of the omnipresent exemption amounts always having been sufficiently high to safeguard the common laborer from the Income Tax. In light of this condition; it is easier to argue that the Tax itself was more of an excise Tax on business, than it was a Direct Tax on every American. This is, I believe, the opinion in Brushaber, and the reason the SC was again able to dance around the term "Direct Tax".
You keep saying that previous taxes were unconstitutional Bill. No such rulings existed. Your argument is based on ignoring all the rulings except one.
Quote:

9. It is abundantly clear in hindsight, that the exemption ($600) intended to shield the common laborer from paying this supposed Excise Tax, apparently intended for business, eroded into impotence with inflation (rapidly, on account of the abandonment of the Classical Gold Standard), resulting in effect; of Direct Taxation of every American's Income. I submit this is likely precisely what legislators intended, but refused to actually quantify legally or acknowledge in any way, because they knew, or at least suspected, the American Public would punish them in their outrage. They had sold an Excise Tax that only affected the affluent, but affectively transitioned to a Direct Tax on everyone.

10. To this day the IRS, the DOJ, the Supreme Court, and the overall Legislative body collectively continue to pretend this legislative fraud never took place, out of necessity. How could they do otherwise? An utter lack of reasonable potential remedy forces each of these branches of government to essentially self sustain with straight denial. So paramount is this denial; they've enacted protective measures to thorough persecute and prosecute anyone and everyone who dares challenge the basis upon which this fraud was perpetrated against the American People.
What fraud Bill? The only fraud I see is coming in support of your arguments; the claim that the income tax has repeatedly been found to be unconstitutional, the claim that the 16th doesn't apply because it doesn't include the word "direct", etc.
Quote:

11. In retrospect, it is clear the government did what it needed to do to self sustain. No one could reasonably argue that the Federal government could exist without funding, nor that the founding fathers didn't intend to provide them with avenues to obtain said funding. However, it is perfectly reasonable to presume that the founding fathers did not intend to allow for an overly invasive, ultimately totalitarian means of obtaining it… such as our current system of Internal Revenue. This may very well be the reason it wasn't covered by the original constitution in the first place. Unfortunately, we'll never know.
Read the Federalist papers before you make conclusions about what they did or didn't expect. The founders were well aware of the necessity of an agency to collect taxes and enforce the tax laws. From Fed 33
Quote:
This simple train of inquiry furnishes us at once with a test by which to judge of the true nature of the clause complained of. It conducts us to this palpable truth, that a power to lay and collect taxes must be a power to pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER for the execution of that power; and what does the unfortunate and culumniated provision in question do more than declare the same truth, to wit, that the national legislature, to whom the power of laying and collecting taxes had been previously given, might, in the execution of that power, pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER to carry it into effect?

Quote:

12. It is a FACT that IRS rules effectively circumvent the 5th amendment by forcing citizens to provide evidence against themselves. It is a FACT that the DOJ's enforcement of IRS rules effectively circumvents both the 5th and 14th amendments in that they utterly deny citizen's due process. There is NO presumption of innocence and, in fact, a citizen is presumed guilty until he can prove otherwise in a court of law… and even then he is hindered by cumbersomely expensive procedural rules and routinely denied hitherto sometimes effective defenses that protection measures have been legislated to prevent (frivolous, my A$$).


You might want to read the 5th and 14th amendments Bill. Unless you are committing a crime in your filing I don't see how your rights are violated. Please explain how someone is assumed guilty just for filing a tax return. I have had the IRS send me letters to clarify items on my returns. I wasn't assumed "guilty." I only needed to send them the proper supporting documents. If they hadn't accepted them I could have still gone to court before I would have had to pay any penalties. This is a far out argument that makes no sense. People that commit crimes when they file their tax returns then complain their rights were violated. Find me one person jailed without a court ruling. Find me one that fought it in court that didn't get a hearing. Because their arguments were not allowed doesn't mean their rights were violated. It means they didn't have good representation.

Are you arguing that a bank robber should be allowed to argue that he didn't commit a crime since the money he stole isn't really legal tender? Can every bank robber continue to make that argument after one does it and the court rules it a friviolous argument.
Quote:

13. The United States of America can no more afford to admit their unconstitutional legislation today than they could in 1913… or during any of the SC cases of the past. Since there is no reasonable remedy for repair; the only thing we can do is accept the Internal Revenue with all it's constitutional shortcomings, or abandon it in favor of a system of taxation that both our founding fore fathers and the citizens of today would approved of. Details available HERE. :wink:


As to your arguments Bill. Hamilton had this to say in Fed 31 in disputing those that didn't think the Constitution should grant an unlimited ability to tax.
Quote:
The obscurity is much oftener in the passions and prejudices of the reasoner than in the subject. Men, upon too many occasions, do not give their own understandings fair play; but, yielding to some untoward bias, they entangle themselves in words and confound themselves in subtleties.

How else could it happen (if we admit the objectors to be sincere in their opposition), that positions so clear as those which manifest the necessity of a general power of taxation in the government of the Union, should have to encounter any adversaries among men of discernment?

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 09:58 am
By the way Bill. Over half the judges in the Hylton case debated and voted on the constitution. They were quite familiar with the arguments of direct vs indirect taxation. You can't ignore their writings any more than you can ignore Hamilton and others.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:43 am
Help in Understanding Democrat Tax Refunds and Taxation

If you don't understand the Democrats' version of tax refunds, this is for
you:

50,000 people go to a baseball game, but the game was rained out.

A refund was then due.

The team was about to mail refunds when a group of Congressional Democrats stopped them and suggested that they send out the ticket refunds based on the Democrat National Committee's interpretation of fairness.

Originally the refunds were to be paid based on the price each person had paid for the tickets.

Unfortunately that meant most of the refund money would be going to the ticket holders who had purchased the most expensive tickets. This, according to the DNC, is considered totally unfair.

A decision was then made to pay out the refunds in this manner:

People in the $10 seats will get back $15. After all, they have less money to spend on tickets to begin with. Call it an "Earned Income Ticket Credit."
Persons "earn" it by having few skills, poor work habits, and low ambition, thus keeping them at entry-level wages.

People in the $25 seats will get back $25, because it "seems fair." People in the $50 seats will get back $1, because they already make a lot of money and don't need a refund. After all, if they can afford a $50 ticket, they must not be paying enough taxes.

People in the $75 luxury box seats will each have to pay an additional $25 because it's the "right thing to do."

People walking past the stadium that couldn't afford to buy a ticket for the game each will get a $10 refund, even though they didn't pay anything for the tickets. They need the most help. Sometimes this is known as Affirmative Action.

Now do you understand?

If not, contact Representative Nancy Pelosi, Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator John Kerry or Senator Hillary Clinton for assistance.

Now I understand our system of taxation. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:57 am
parados wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
3. Prior the 16th Amendment, Income Taxes were unconstitutional because they rightly fell into the category of Direct Taxation and were not apportioned accordingly. Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so… and unfortunately our fore fathers utterly failed to define it themselves.
This has been pointed out several times to you Bill as being flat out wrong. Income taxes on personal income from labor were found to be constitutional and an indirect tax.
(I can't tell you how tempted I am to call you Parrotose :razz:) You seem to be under some form of hypnosis that makes you think a Supreme Court decision is the ending point for an accurate assessment of the truth, let alone the end of debate over a subject. The decision in Roe Vs. Wade is every bit as binding, but in no way ends the debate or is any form of proof of correctness. It is, by definition an opinion. If you actually read Springer; you'll see even in the opinion they state no certainty of the definition of "Direct", nor did the SC in Hylton, nor is it defined by the men who originally wrote it for Dog's sake. Your certainty is derived from their opinion of what it means, which conveniently ignores my supposition of how they arrived at it.

If you'd like to try another response, in recognition of the FACT that I understand the legality of the Springer Decision and have not disputed the factuality of it, I'll be happy to respond. Since practically your entire counter-argument relies on the misconception that I'm challenging the factuality of the opinions in Springer and Hylton, the balance of your answers are likewise corrupt… and basically non-responsive.

Further, you utterly failed to provide any indication of our FF contemplating an Income Tax. Instead you pretended I sutggested they didn't anticipate Tax in general... which is utterly false. You essentially stated the same thing I did about Tax in general, complete with quotes and a reference, as if this somehow refuted my actual supposition. It doesn't.

Is there some reason you're unable to understand my clearly printed words (I'll be happy to rephrase or define as necessary)? For instance; why must you accuse me of denying the outcome of Springer, instead of addressing what I actually wrote? Any damn fool can read the uncertainty of the definition of "Direct" in the words of the very opinion you erroneously cite as FACT. The consensus among the Supremes seems to be that the definition lays entirely in the court's jurisprudence... as in NOT CERTAIN. If you can not or will not argue against the positions I actually took, there is no point in responding to your false interpretations of same.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:00 am
That's funny, TTH. Laughing
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 07:05 pm
Lets examine your statement Bill. You said..

Quote:
3. Prior the 16th Amendment, Income Taxes were unconstitutional because they rightly fell into the category of Direct Taxation and were not apportioned accordingly. Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so… and unfortunately our fore fathers utterly failed to define it themselves.


So, lets see how you could possibly reach that conclusion.
There are 2 cases that are relevent to the issue, Springer and Pollock.
In Springer v US. Income taxes were declared constitutional. In Pollock v Farmers Union the income tax on income from property was declared to be a direct tax. The income tax on income from state and municipal bonds was declared to violate the the provisions that prevent the US government from taxing state governments. On no other issues did the court rule. They did not rule that income taxes on employment were unconstitutional.

Now Bill. You have stated, "Prior the 16th Amendment, Income Taxes were unconstitutional because they rightly fell into the category of Direct Taxation and were not apportioned accordingly." Your statement is absolute in its structure and implies that all income taxes were unconstitutional. You then said "only by perverting the meaning of the word direct" is this not so. There are some very real problems with the veracity of your statement Bill.

This is from the first ruling in Pollock.
Quote:
Upon each of the other questions argued at the bar, to wit: (1) Whether the void provisions as to rents and income from real estate invalidated the whole act; (2) whether, as to the income from personal property, as such, the act is unconstitutional, as laying direct taxes; (3) whether any part of the tax, if not considered as a direct tax, is invalid for want of uniformity on either of the grounds suggested,-the justices who heard the argument are equally divided, and therefore no opinion is expressed.

Pollock 157 US 429
So the court expresses no opinion as a whole on constitutionality but you say that it was unconstitutional Bill. On what basis other then your opinion? The issue of constitutionality is decided by the courts. They didn't rule on all income taxes. They limited it to income on real estate and personal property.

Then in the second Pollock ruling the court states

Quote:
We have considered the act only in respect of the tax on income derived from real estate, and from invested personal property, and have not commented on so much of it as bears on gains or profits from business, privileges, or employments, in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such.
Pollock US 158 601

The court then goes on to say in a dissenting opinion in the second Pollock ruling..
Quote:
That upon every occasion when it has considered the question whether a duty on incomes was a direct tax, within the meaning of the constitution, this court has, without a dissent- [158 U.S. 601, 661] ing voice, determined it in the negative, always proceeding on the ground that capitation taxes and taxes on land were the only direct taxes contemplated by the framers of the constitution.
Who is perverting the meaning of "direct" Bill? The court and every decision or the tax protestors that take certain sections out of context while ignoring relevent parts?

When it comes to "constitutionality" Bill, the Supreme Court is the ending point. Or at least it is until the constitution gets amended. That is what happened in this case. If you want to make absolute statements about constitutionality the we have to deal with what the Supreme Court said.

Let's examine your new claims now..
Quote:
If you actually read Springer; you'll see even in the opinion they state no certainty of the definition of "Direct", nor did the SC in Hylton, nor is it defined by the men who originally wrote it for Dog's sake.

So lets look at Springer. In Springer they discuss the argument then reach a conclusion. Please point out the "uncertainty" in the ruling.
Quote:
We are not aware that any writer, since Hylton v. United States was decided, has expressed a view of the subject different from that of these authors.

Our conclusions are, that direct taxes, within the meaning of the Constitution, are only capitation taxes, as expressed in that instrument, and taxes on real estate; and that the tax of which the plaintiff in error complains is within the category of an excise or duty.


In Hylton we have the following statements
Hylton ruling
Justice Chase
Quote:
I am inclined to think, but of this I do not give a judicial opinion, that the direct taxes contemplated by the constitution, are only two, to wit, a capitation or poll tax, simply, without regard to property, profession or any other circumstance; and a tax on land. I doubt, whether a tax, by a general assessment of personal property, within the United States, is included within the term direct tax[/b].

Justic Patersons states
Quote:
I never entertained a doubt, that the principal, I will not say, the only, objects, that the framers of the constitution contemplated, as falling within the rule of apportionment, were a capitation tax and a tax on land.

Justice Iredell
Quote:
There is no necessity or propriety, in determining what is or is not, a direct or indirect tax, in all cases. Some difficulties may occur, which we do not at present foresee. Perhaps, a direct tax, in the sense of the constitution, can mean nothing but a tax on something inseparably annexed to the soil: something capable of apportionment, under all such circumstances. A land or a poll tax may be considered of this description.

Now I agree that there is uncertainty in the meaning of "direct" in the Hylton ruling. However Bill, you stated. "Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so" Only is an absolute Bill. It is you that is making absolute statements in direct contradiction to the uncertainty.

As to your clearly printed words, Bill. I read them as written. Did you not mean them as an absolute? As written they are NOT factual.
The income tax as a whole was not unconstitutional and direct could not "only" be read your way without perverting the definition. Paterson was at the constitutional convention. Do his words not count?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 07:40 pm
Dude, which part of "I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE OPINIONS GIVEN WERE, BUT DISAGREE" don't you understand? Why can't you address the reasons for my disagreement without parroting the same sh!t over and over again? I read the same friggin cases you did and don't need your excerpts as you are circumventing my point with monotonous repetition. I am not denying anything you quoted... I'm offering an opposing view for why it was written in the first place. Go back to the list of 13 with this in mind... or don't. You don't have to agree, but for Dog's sake man; stop pretending you can't understand what I wrote. The definition of "Direct" as decided in Springer relied upon educated guesses from opinions in Hylton. This is a FACT. It is my OPINION that the definition was perverted on purpose, out of necessity. If you can't accept that as my opinion, than you will not be able to comprehend the list of 13. Please, stop being deliberately obtuse.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 08:28 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
That's funny, TTH. Laughing


Thanks. When it comes to taxes it helps to have a sense of humor sometimes. Nice avatar BTW Cool
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:32 pm
That's fine Bill. It's your opinion. (It is on the same level as trying to argue the world is flat because no one has proven that sea serpents don't exist at its edge.)

You haven't provided a scintilla of evidence to support why you reached that conclusion. Without any credible support your conclusions appear without any merit. I see no reason to let uninformed opinion stand as a reasonable conclusion. It isn't. You haven't provide the logic required to reach your conclusion. You say you read the rulings but then come up with this tortured explanation without providing evidence of where they manufactured the definition.

Provide what they ignored.
Provide where they controverted any evidence.
Provide some semblence of a reasonable explanation to support your opinion.
Tell us how any reasonable reading of the 16th amendment didn't overturn Pollock.


You accuse me of not addressing the disagreement. I have addressed it. Your basis is bogus. You can't support it with any evidence. When asked to support it you get all upset and attack me for being arrogant. You dodge and weave and say the Supreme Court doesn't matter but then you accuse the Supreme court of making up a definition. The same definition by the way that can be found from people at that Constitutional convention.

When presented with the direct statements from Hylton, you fail to show how they "perverted" the meaning. You fail to show how Paterson who was at the constitutional convention would have no real understanding of what they talked about. You fail to show how the words of Hamilton and Madison are not to be trusted. You state that Hart's manufactured definition "sounds logical" but have no support for that claim. You claim without any evidence that your opinion has some basis. Provide it.

Your arguments here Bill have been based on false information more than once.
You quoted the statement from the 1871 commissioner and said the income tax had never been tested in court for constitutionality. (False)
You stated Pollock overturned the ruling of Hylton. (False)
You hid behind a source for your statement that the income tax was ruled unconstitutional in 1872.


Simply because something "sounds logical" doesn't make it reasonable or logical. I am not being obtuse here Bill. I am being fairly obvious. Your argument has no basis. You can't provide a basis. You make vague comments then when they are shot down you accuse me of "parroting" something. I have parroted nothing. It is you that has parroted without bothering to check if your sources are accurate. Perhaps you could bother to address my points for a change Bill.


Nah, you won't. You will accuse me of being childish again.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:26 am
Damn it, I knew it... my post is too big and it's being rejected... will piecemail it out.

Thanks TTH!

Per your request…
parados wrote:

In Hylton we have the following statements
Hylton ruling
Justice Chase
Quote:
I am inclined to think, but of this I do not give a judicial opinion, that the direct taxes contemplated by the constitution, are only two, to wit, a capitation or poll tax, simply, without regard to property, profession or any other circumstance; and a tax on land. I doubt, whether a tax, by a general assessment of personal property, within the United States, is included within the term direct tax[/b].
Justice Chase wouldn't even give this as a judicial opinion. How sure was he?
parados wrote:
Justic Patersons states
Quote:
I never entertained a doubt, that the principal, I will not say, the only, objects, that the framers of the constitution contemplated, as falling within the rule of apportionment, were a capitation tax and a tax on land.
This is absurd. Our framers weren't known for vagueness. If this is all they meant; why not just say so? Justice Paterson betrays himself with his false certainty.

parados wrote:
Justice Iredell
Quote:
There is no necessity or propriety, in determining what is or is not, a direct or indirect tax, in all cases. Some difficulties may occur, which we do not at present foresee. Perhaps, a direct tax, in the sense of the constitution, can mean nothing but a tax on something inseparably annexed to the soil: something capable of apportionment, under all such circumstances. A land or a poll tax may be considered of this description.
In other words; he knows for sure that land and poll taxes are definitely Direct Taxes (Yep, water is wet.) Other than that, he doesn't claim to know... but does offer the opinion that there is no necessity to determine what does or does not constitute a Direct Tax. Shocked Hogwash... that is the very question he is supposedly answering.

Neither Justices Cushing nor Elsworth heard the arguments or offered opinions. Of the 3 that did; one refused to give a judicial opinion, one said it didn't matter (both used the language of uncertainty) and the ONLY guy left is Patterson, who claims he had NO DOUBT that the framers meant only capitation tax and a tax on land... which is absurd on it's face because if that was the case they would have simply written that.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:31 am
(Part 2)
parados wrote:
Now I agree that there is uncertainty in the meaning of "direct" in the Hylton ruling.
Well that's good. Sometimes backpedaling to reality is a healthy thing to do. You would have done good to stop there, instead of trying to sidetrack the argument with the following diversion:

parados wrote:
However Bill, you stated. "Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so" Only is an absolute Bill. It is you that is making absolute statements in direct contradiction to the uncertainty.
Laughing You'd have a point if, you hadn't picked my quote off of my list of my conclusions. The entire list is made up of my current opinions. The only things I considered factual, I labeled as such. This is a sorry attempt at diversion; and it serves no purpose.

parados wrote:
As to your clearly printed words, Bill. I read them as written. Did you not mean them as an absolute? As written they are NOT factual.
Nor were they intended to be factual. The very supposition is absurd in that if it was easily provable fact it would likely have been handled a long, long time ago. I'm starting to suspect you're the understudy of another poster here that likes to pretend his opponents have made extreme statements (while denying his own, of course). Not good on you. There is plenty of room for rational debate without reaching for such tactics. Again; you've got the entire United States Government going to bat for you for two centuries of recorded history; try to face the opposing opinions head on.
parados wrote:
The income tax as a whole was not unconstitutional and direct could not "only" be read your way without perverting the definition. Paterson was at the constitutional convention. Do his words not count?
His words are suspect in that they don't gel well with the rest of the constitution's carefulness for accuracy. Deliberately vague just doesn't figure. Again, it was not my burden to prove my opinion gospel. I merely opined where I thought an error was made, and supposed a reason why. Remove this one single Justice who spoke with any degree of certainty and you're left wondering why the word "Direct" suddenly took on a hitherto never used meaning (If your mind isn't super-glued closed, that is.)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:33 am
(Part 3)
Direct Taxes, prior to ANY Supreme Court (mis)interpreting, was most likely derived directly from Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations": This is a most famous book, read by all of the who's who of the era… Google it and see for yourself. Hell, Madison once studied under him for crying out sideways. Here's one quick grab from NOT MY[\i] FAVORITE SOURCE, Salon.com :razz:, but I bet it's accurate:
[quote]And Thomas Jefferson, who described "The Wealth of Nations" as "the best book extant" on political economy, famously wondered at about the same time whether all hereditary privileges should be abolished since "the earth belongs in usufruct to the living." He could have been quoting Smith with those words: It is "the most absurd of all suppositions," said Smith, "that every successive generation of men have not an equal right to the earth."[/quote]

[quote="Wikipedia"] An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations is the magnum opus of the Scottish economist Adam Smith, published on March 9, 1776 during the Scottish Enlightenment. It is a clearly written account of political economy at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, and is widely considered to be the first modern work in the field of economics. The work is also the first comprehensive defense of free market policies. It is broken down into five books between two volumes.

The Wealth of Nations was written for the average educated individual of the 18th century rather than for specialists and mathematicians. Thus, the book remains relatively accessible, even to the modern reader. [/quote]

Accessible indeed; I found it HERE in it's entirety. You'll never believe what it contains :wink::
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:36 am
(Part 4)
[url=http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-b5-c2-article-4-ss2.htm]Adam Smith[/url] wrote:
Book Five

Of the Revenue of the Sovereign or Commonwealth.



CHAPTER II

Of the Sources of the General or Public Revenue of the Society

ARTICLE IV

Taxes which, it is intended, should fall indifferently upon every different Species of Revenue

Taxes upon Consumable Commodities

The impossibility of taxing the people, in proportion to their revenue, by any capitation, seems to have given occasion to the invention of taxes upon consumable commodities. The state, not knowing how to tax, directly and proportionably, the revenue of its subjects, endeavours to tax it indirectly by taxing their expense, which, it is supposed, will in most cases be nearly in proportion to their revenue. Their expense is taxed by taxing the consumable commodities upon which it is laid out.

Consumable commodities are either necessaries or luxuries.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 06:51 am
(Part 5 Quote and post finishes)

[url=http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-b5-c2-article-4-ss2.htm]Adam Smith[/url] wrote:
By necessaries I understand not only the commodities which are indispensably necessary for the support of life, but whatever the custom of the country renders it indecent for creditable people, even of the lowest order, to be without. A linen shirt, for example, is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct. Custom, in the same manner, has rendered leather shoes a necessary of life in England. The poorest creditable person of either sex would be ashamed to appear in public without them. In Scotland, custom has rendered them a necessary of life to the lowest order of men; but not to the same order of women, who may, without any discredit, walk about barefooted. In France they are necessaries neither to men nor to women, the lowest rank of both sexes appearing there publicly, without any discredit, sometimes in wooden shoes, and sometimes barefooted. Under necessaries, therefore, I comprehend not only those things which nature, but those things which the established rules of decency have rendered necessary to the lowest rank of people. All other things I call luxuries, without meaning by this appellation to throw the smallest degree of reproach upon the temperate use of them. Beer and ale, for example, in Great Britain, and wine, even in the wine countries, I call luxuries. A man of any rank may, without any reproach, abstain totally from tasting such liquors. Nature does not render them necessary for the support of life, and custom nowhere renders it indecent to live without them.

As the wages of labour are everywhere regulated, partly by the demand for it, and partly by the average price of the necessary articles of subsistence, whatever raises this average price must necessarily raise those wages so that the labourer may still be able to purchase that quantity of those necessary articles which the state of the demand for labour, whether increasing, stationary, or declining, requires that he should have. A tax upon those articles necessarily raises their price somewhat higher than the amount of the tax, because the dealer, who advances the tax, must generally get it back with a profit. Such a tax must, therefore, occasion a rise in the wages of labour proportionable to this rise of price.

It is thus that a tax upon the necessaries of life operates exactly in the same manner as a direct tax upon the wages of labour.


Now, can we get back to the discussion at hand? It won't kill you to swallow a grain of salt and treat my opinion with at least enough respect to discuss the points I mentioned, instead of this incessant sidetracking..
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 07:44 am
In Hylton the judges only had to rule on the carriage tax as an indirect tax. The 3 statements are their personal opinion of what the meaning of direct is. Judges are very careful to not make definative statements that could be misconstrued later.

You have this as your opinion...
Quote:
Only by perverting the definition of the word "direct" is this not so… and unfortunately our fore fathers utterly failed to define it themselves.

4. SC Justices recognized this, probably to a man, but had no choice but to pretend it wasn't so or the United States government would become insolvent with debt for its ill gotten gains.


They made their statements in 1795. These men were contemporaries of the founders. Paterson was at the convention and voted on the constitution. There was no risk of the US being insolvent without an income tax at this time. Are you saying they were purposely perverting the definition of "direct" in their personal opinions?
Are you saying that Paterson was lying about the principle considered by those discussing it?

Your claim that these men were part of some great conspiracy to create an income tax flies in the face of reality Bill. It makes no sense. That would make Hamilton and Madison also part of this conspiracy.

You are continuing with your attempt to pull a few disperate facts together to support a cockeyed theory while discounting anything that would raise questions about it. It is the same argument Hart made. I could refute it in the same manner as before but you would accuse me of "parroting" again when I point to the same arguments that defeated this argument in the past.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 08:27 am
Bill,
Where is your source for Madison studying with Adam Smith?

Smith never left Europe and retired from teaching in 1764. Madison never left the new world. He never left home until he went to the college of New Jersey at the age of 18 in 1769. He studied Smith at college.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jan, 2007 09:42 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:

parados wrote:

In Hylton we have the following statements
Hylton ruling
Justice Chase
Quote:
I am inclined to think, but of this I do not give a judicial opinion, that the direct taxes contemplated by the constitution, are only two, to wit, a capitation or poll tax, simply, without regard to property, profession or any other circumstance; and a tax on land. I doubt, whether a tax, by a general assessment of personal property, within the United States, is included within the term direct tax[/b].
Justice Chase wouldn't even give this as a judicial opinion. How sure was he?

Sure enough to vote with the majority. How much more sure did he need to be?

OCCOM BILL wrote:
parados wrote:
Justic Patersons states
Quote:
I never entertained a doubt, that the principal, I will not say, the only, objects, that the framers of the constitution contemplated, as falling within the rule of apportionment, were a capitation tax and a tax on land.
This is absurd. Our framers weren't known for vagueness. If this is all they meant; why not just say so? Justice Paterson betrays himself with his false certainty.

How is this "false certainty?" Sounds like genuine certainty to me.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
parados wrote:
Justice Iredell
Quote:
There is no necessity or propriety, in determining what is or is not, a direct or indirect tax, in all cases. Some difficulties may occur, which we do not at present foresee. Perhaps, a direct tax, in the sense of the constitution, can mean nothing but a tax on something inseparably annexed to the soil: something capable of apportionment, under all such circumstances. A land or a poll tax may be considered of this description.
In other words; he knows for sure that land and poll taxes are definitely Direct Taxes (Yep, water is wet.) Other than that, he doesn't claim to know... but does offer the opinion that there is no necessity to determine what does or does not constitute a Direct Tax. Shocked Hogwash... that is the very question he is supposedly answering.

The only question that he needed to answer was whether the carriage tax was constitutional. On that point Iredell was certain: the tax was constitutional. If he offered any opinions about other kinds of taxes, those opinions would have been obiter dicta.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Neither Justices Cushing nor Elsworth heard the arguments or offered opinions. Of the 3 that did; one refused to give a judicial opinion, one said it didn't matter (both used the language of uncertainty) ...

Well, your reading of the opinions is wrong and your math is wrong too. Chase and Iredell both were convinced that the carriage tax was an indirect tax. That you read their opinions as being "uncertain" is a strange confabulation on your part. Furthermore, Justice Wilson also issued an opinion that the carriage tax was constitutional -- he just did it in a lower court opinion. As Wilson noted:
    As there were only four Judges, including myself, who attended the argument of this cause, I should have thought it proper to join in the decision, though I had before expressed a judicial opinion on the subject, in the Circuit Court of Virginia, did not the unanimity of the other three Judges, relieve me from the necessity. I shall now, however, only add, that [i]my sentiments, in favor of the constitutionality of the tax in question, have not been changed[/i].

(emphasis added) So four justices came out an explicitly endorsed the holding that the carriage tax was an indirect tax.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
...and the ONLY guy left is Patterson, who claims he had NO DOUBT that the framers meant only capitation tax and a tax on land... which is absurd on it's face because if that was the case they would have simply written that.

You seem to think that the constitution is written with crystalline clarity, such that there is simply no room for doubt, let alone interpretation. I don't know how you got that idea, but it's pretty remote from the truth. The "direct tax" clause is just one of the more obscure parts of the constitution, but it is not the only one.
0 Replies
 
 

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