Naive americans

I'm with Setanta. The current approval rates for the Bush-Cheney admin back the figures she/he presented.

Yeah.. I thought so too.

Builder wrote:

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On your former statement, why is criticism of the admin of America not freedom of speech, but slander? The government is for the people, by the people, and if it isn't, then why not? Read some of the following link. It is neither kook-driven agenda-based slander, nor is it based on hearsay. The links within that link are to sites from major periodicals and news sources.

It's not simple criticism of the administration.

I believe it is criticism. It's not like we are calling for an impeachment.

This is an accusation of mass murder.

And that surprises you? A former US admin planned to murder US citizens to forward their march south into Cuba. Remember?

That's slightly different in my book than simple criticism of an administration , which I agree is politics as usual and the right of every citizen in a democracy.

Where there is smoke there is fire. We have dodgy "professionals" handing down dodgy "denials" of fact, in the face of the greatest controversial attack on American soil. The people want answers. They aren't getting anything but old boys patting themselves on the back, and an admin that selects who can attend "public" press meetings with the president. Oh, did I mention that those priveliged souls who get to attend, must sign a waiver stating that they won't heckle the president?

I admit I haven't read the links yet, but I will.

I sincerely hope you take the time to read most of them. You might then not wonder why the doubters are numbering more than the patriots.

Yet, I still say that unless there is some smoking gun or preponderance of evidence, or until charges are brought against George Bush and his administration based on some probable cause to indict them of something- to engage in speculation and to accuse these people of mass murder goes beyond free speech and enters the realm of slander and libel.

Nice words, and admirably patriotic, but when the admin refuses to cede to the will of the people, in creating a proper investigation into the farcical non-investigation into 9-11, the voice of dissent will only grow louder and louder.

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You might get some insight into why non-Americans are looking at Americans with distrust and thinking of them as either naive, or simply too entrenched in believing their own news sources to the exclusion of other's.

This is almost exactly what I said in my first post on this thread-that Americans have an insular attitude that manifests itself in their ability to take what they need and want, and believe whatever they must believe, so that they will feel justified in doing what they have to do to get what they need or want-no matter what the cost to the rest of the world.

A lot of Australians are insular, but if they get the slightest whiff of a stink in our admin, party loyalty goes out the window, as it rightly should, and the noise and clamour continues until heads roll. That is democracy for the people. What you have at the moment in the US of A is far from what your forebears created for you in the constitution.

It's a very convenient ability to manipulate and deny-and it has very little to do with being stupid or naive-in fact I think it indicates pretty much the opposite of those two characteristics.
(And I'm including myself in this. I have to admit I'm pretty good at seeing things the way I'd like them to be when I need or want something-although so are most people-so maybe it's not only Americans we should be talking about

Agreed. Australians want to pay off their mortgages, and provide for their children. If something happens to negatively affect that, then Aussies come out fighting. No party preference will get in the way of that.

. Speaking of sheep, lemmings and humans, what is anyone else doing to make any of it change?)

I'm just trying to raise the awareness levels of certain individuals who would prefer to maintain the status quo, and pretend that nothing underhanded is happening. If I help just one other to realise the duping they are experiencing, then I'm happy.

I believe it is a fundamental error to assume that assumed international distaste for America and Americans is mostly a result of the supposedly inept policies of our current Administration (whether you buy this assessment of it or not).

We are alone at the top of the heap right now.

Envy, back-biting, and ingratitude are much more determiners of public attitudes than are memories of past challenges successfully met together and past favors rendered.

This is particularly the case with Europeans.

Chancellor Schroeder of Germany wasted very little time and energy over contemplation of the assistance the U.S. provided in achieving German unity, even as the Soviet Empire collapsed.

This was but a fairly compact, and perhaps more vivid, encapsulation of a larger phenominon visible across the continent, particularly in Western Europe.

Attitudes are a bit different in Central Europe, Australia and South Asia.

Even the contemporary list of supposed blunders by the current Administration is utterly pale compared to the sad, even gruesome history of the European Powers from 1914 right through Suez, the French colonial wars in North Africa and Syria, and their subsequent coasting in the shade of American power during the Cold War.

Comparisons are odious and obvious. When your admin does something for any other reason that personal profit, the rest of the rational world might sit up and take notice.

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Comparisons are odious and obvious. When your admin does something for any other reason that personal profit, the rest of the rational world might sit up and take notice.

Builder- I'm wondering why so many world governments who disagree with America's stance on this war, which is killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, are not enacting measures like economic sanctions to voice their abhorrence in a way that might actually register (perhaps in a small way, but in a way never the less that would hit home more concretely).

I'm wondering what sanctions would be effective. The AWB (Australian Wheat Board) just got their collective arse kicked over bribes to Saddam for wheat sales.

And if people/world governments really believe this government is responsible for the death of 3,000 of it's own innocent citizens, how can they with any self-respect at all, continue to profit from business and protection or any kind of a relationship- unless they're as naive or stupid or selfish as America and Americans?

I'm guessing when I say that pride is a big part of this ruse. When a nation is lead to believe that they are at the top of the pile, it's very difficult, even for those lower down the food chain, to relent and fess up that they are no more or less evil than the rest of the plebs.

I think it's because they can't afford to.

Or, the admins of the other countries accept the ruse as being part of business as usual.

And I think it's exactly for the reasons Georgeob1 stated.
But that just highlights the way in which governments ( and people) all over the world are not so very different from each other- economics is usually the bottom line of any issue.

So, do you have a conceptual fantasy about economics being holistic and pure?

I'm with Setanta. The current approval rates for the Bush-Cheney admin back the figures she/he presented.

Like many thinking people in Australia, Americans are under the pump to simply make ends meet in their own households. The widening gap between the wealthy and the middle-class is part of the equation.

Politics takes a back seat to personal/family survival.

Now that surprises me. You know, in terms of how you're so interested in respecting everyone's different perception of reality and duality, etc., etc.

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So, do you have a conceptual fantasy about economics being holistic and pure?

I have to admit that economics isn't a subject I've ever fantasized much about- so no- no conceptually pure and holistic concepts there-unless you're talking about economists like Muhammad Yunus -and then yes, I guess you could call his approach to economics "holistic" if not pure-certainly more inspiring than most.

Did I really sound as if I have fantasies about world leaders (especially GB) as being holistic and pure? If so, that's not even close to what I believe- I just find it hard to believe that he could be a mass murderer. In my mind there's a pretty big disconnect between someone being into politics and power as usual and indulging in megalomania and murder. I try to give credit where credit is due- and as much as I disagree with much that's he done-GB just doesn't strike me as a mass murdering type of personality.
I'm the first to admit though, that I could always be rationalizing or in denial and dead wrong-mainly because I truly don't want to believe someone who's running our country could be so evil.

*I find that orange hard to read against the white background by the way- so if you respond to this, and want to use color - how about using the red or blue pencil?

Builder wrote:

I'm with Setanta. The current approval rates for the Bush-Cheney admin back the figures she/he presented.

Like many thinking people in Australia, Americans are under the pump to simply make ends meet in their own households. The widening gap between the wealthy and the middle-class is part of the equation.

Politics takes a back seat to personal/family survival.

Is there any hard facts to back the statement that there is a growing gap between middle and upper class? I always hear it said, but no one ever provides the facts to back the statement.

I saw your VP visit our humble country recently. Cops from all over the shop were recruited to shadow his convoy from the airport to his destination. It looked for all the world like a funeral procession, except for the flashing lights and guns. I don't think the Queen or the Pope gets such attention here.

As you said, if someone like Dick Cheney gets more attention than the Pope and the Queen, how's he supposed to ever get the message that he's nothing more than a public servant who is perceived by the world to be the second man in an administration that is seen as being corrupt, evil and/or bumbling?

Do you see how there are some mixed messages being given here? You can't really blame Americans (government and/or people) for choosing the more flattering message as the one they'd like to adopt or believe.

I wanted to make the subject line : Stupid Americans. But decided against it, because I don't want this thread to be seen as petty or spiteful.

Before I go further I should make it clear that I am well aware of the fact that 49% of Americans did not vote for George W. Bush. But that still leaves 51% who have some serious explaining to do. This post is not going to focus on just how dumb your leader is (enough has been said on that topic). Instead I want to focus on some of the lies that America is holding up as the truth.

The first one is propably one of the most controversial lies ever. The story goes that your government attacked itself on 9/11. Now initially I also thought that this was as absurd a notion as you could ever get. But then I watched TerrorStorm and my opinion changed immediately. If this is true (and I believe it is), then it would not be the first time something like this has happened. They call it False Flagging in the documentary (which you can watch on YouTube). The reason the government is getting away with it is because it so wholly unbelievable and also because your government is slowly taking away your right to free speech. Did you realize this? You are not allowed to speak your mind anymore. If someone dares question what happened they are immediately marked as crazy (Charlie Sheen?).
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