Naive americans

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I wanted to make the subject line : Stupid Americans. But decided against it, because I don't want this thread to be seen as petty or spiteful.

Before I go further I should make it clear that I am well aware of the fact that 49% of Americans did not vote for George W. Bush. But that still leaves 51% who have some serious explaining to do. This post is not going to focus on just how dumb your leader is (enough has been said on that topic). Instead I want to focus on some of the lies that America is holding up as the truth.

The first one is propably one of the most controversial lies ever. The story goes that your government attacked itself on 9/11. Now initially I also thought that this was as absurd a notion as you could ever get. But then I watched TerrorStorm and my opinion changed immediately. If this is true (and I believe it is), then it would not be the first time something like this has happened. They call it False Flagging in the documentary (which you can watch on YouTube). The reason the government is getting away with it is because it so wholly unbelievable and also because your government is slowly taking away your right to free speech. Did you realize this? You are not allowed to speak your mind anymore. If someone dares question what happened they are immediately marked as crazy (Charlie Sheen?). If I and all the others are wrong then it should be very easy to prove us wrong. But instead of attempting this, your government acts childish and petty. They shift the focus away from the actual issue and focus instead on whoever is questioning thems past, trying to discredit the person and not the accusation.

Then there is the invasion of Iraq (how many of you know where Iraq is?). I will agree that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless,heartless dictator, that mercilessly murdered his own people for his own personal gain (sound familiar?). But he is not alone in the world. Is America planning on freeing all oppressed people, or just the countries with oil? Iraq wa invaded because they definitely had WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction), but they didn't, did they? I have yet to hear an apology for lying to all of us. Most Americans (online anyway), are not even sure where their children are dying or what they are dying for (what are they dying for?). Do you realize that there are people trying to live there (women and children). Imagine if your suburbs suddenly turned into a war zone, and the people who say they are trying to help you are the same people who are bombing your home every day. A very small percentage of Iraqis are terrorists (propably smaller than the percentage terrorsists in America). So do you still think its fair to try to turn Iraq into a glass parking lot?

Like I said in the beginning. I am well aware of the fact that not all Americans are dumb, it is just a pity that the dumb ones are the loudest ones and in some cases the ones who make the decisions.

So let us discuss these and other very important issues in a mature and respectfull fashion.

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It would help if, every time someone posts one of these "how can Americans be so stupid" threads, they would take some time to consider in advance just what the basis of their proposition is.

In the 2004 election, more than 60% of the electorate voted, which is one of the highest turn-outs of voters in Presidential electoral history. But that is not only not all of the elligible voters, it only represents slightly over 42% of the American population as a whole. Therefore, 51% of the turn-out represents less than 25% of the entire population.

One might argue until the cows come home whether or not the election were evidence of the popularity of Mr. Bush. But the fact remains that the number of people who voted for Bush represents less than 25% of the population--barely more than 20% of the population.

You paint with quite a broad brush, which is typical in this type of thread.

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Re: Naive americans

jnkie wrote:

So let us discuss these and other very important issues in a mature and respectfull fashion.

Oh .... you are serious? Shocked

I'm not exactly a cheerleader for all things American, but I get tired of these all-encompassing, over-simplified, self-righteous .... (I ran out of hyphens...)

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I'm with Setanta. The current approval rates for the Bush-Cheney admin back the figures she/he presented.

Like many thinking people in Australia, Americans are under the pump to simply make ends meet in their own households. The widening gap between the wealthy and the middle-class is part of the equation.

Politics takes a back seat to personal/family survival.

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I'm American and I have fairly positive views about Americans as people, but I disagree that we're naive (as a people-I think I'm kind of naive as an individual-just because I can never believe that people in power could be so evil) but I think for the purposes of this thread, the characteristics that are more apparent in Americans as a people are "short-sighted" and the willingness to be and stay, at any cost to the rest of the world, "insular".
I think this is evidenced by the way in which many Americans are willing to accept manipulation in the form of facts so that the world view we end up with fits whatever perception is called for for our country, so that our own people have their needs met, with little worry about outcome for other countries and other people.

Builder said it really well, here:

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Politics takes a back seat to personal/family survival.

But I would also add or change it to say that in voting for George Bush Americans made it clear that they thought
that the welfare of the rest of the world takes a back seat to personal/family survival in the minds of most Americans.
an indication of the two traits I offered as more fitting than naivete- insularity, and short-sightedness.

I didn't vote for George Bush, and I don't think he's presidential material, but do you realized that when you (and others) accuse him of being a part of 9/11 in any way, you're accusing him of being a mass murderer (deliberately and with forethought outside of a war)? That's a pretty serious accusation to make against a person, and not within a citizen's rights under freedom of speech. It's called slander or libel (depending on whether it's spoken or printed). If I were him, I'd be suing people for defamation of character (unless it was true). What's his reaction been?

But I also wonder why we aren't liberating people in areas of the world that are less rich in natural resources. That is an interesting question, if we, as Americans, are so passionate about everyone's right to live free and under a democracy.

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Some surveys I've seen have found that a frighteningly high percentage of the US population think that everything they'll ever need to know is found in one book. The bible. And if it's not it there it's not worth knowing.
There's only one country in the world that's more tuned in to this idea, and that is Turkey.

If you ask me, that's pretty naive.

I was unsuccesful in finding a link to these surveys, but if I find them I'll post them.

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It's been said by many but worth repeating that people as individuals are okay but as a group is there anything more stupid?

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Some surveys I've seen have found that a frighteningly high percentage of the US population think that everything they'll ever need to know is found in one book. The bible. And if it's not it there it's not worth knowing.

So there's actually a survey that asked that specific question,
"Do you think that everything you'll ever need to know is found in one book? And, "Is that book the Bible? Or even better yet, "How best would you be able to learn everything you'll ever need to know? To which a large percentage of American's answered "From a book, and just one book at that!" and "What book might that be? And then the proverbial dumb, naive "Americans" all answered, "The Bible-it's a font of information".
Interesting...but having lived in America for 44 years-and knowing Americans intimately-I don't believe it.

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If you ask me, that's pretty naive.

If you ask me, it's naive to believe that you can get an accurate picture of a people as a whole from a survey. How large was the sample? Was their sample drawn from all areas of the country, or just from certain specific areas, (such as the southeastern states)? Did the sample include people of all ages, educational and socioeconomic levels? Did it include people of varying ethnicities and religions? Was it gender specific or neutral?
I lived in America for 44 years, and surprise, surprise, I find the picture of the average American person that that survey paints to be absolutely false and misleading. To paint a picture of an entire country of people based on one survery, would be like me reading an article about British people and deciding that's what was true about them before I ever came to England and saw for myself what was true. Why would you want to do that?

I know it's in vogue right now to bash Americans (because of the current American administration and the obvious mess it's wrought on the world), but the fact remains that American people, as a nation of people, are intelligent and innovative. How could stupid, naive people compete in the world to such an extent that they have become leaders in technological development, exploration, and innovation in less than 250 years?
That portrait just doesn't bear up under logical scrutiny.

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The work is done by professor Jon D. Miller at Michigan State Univerity.

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"The lowest-ranking country in terms of discounting evolution is Turkey. The United States is next," said Miller, who has analyzed surveys on belief in evolution from around the world. "The way we characterize religious fundamentalists in Turkey and in the U.S. is that they are both one-book religions.

"Fundamentalists in this country say everything you need to know is in the Bible, period. Islamists say everything you need to know is in the Koran, period," said Miller, a professor in political science.

from: http://special.newsroom.msu.edu/aaas/europeans.html

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jnkie, tens of millions of Americans do not buy the government's 911 theories and demand new investigations.

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"Fundamentalists in this country say everything you need to know is in the Bible, period.

I'm sure he meant that "everything fundamentalists in the US feel they need to know about CREATION is in the Bible"- not everything they need to know about life.

Secondly, did he talk to everyone who identifies him or herself as a fundamentalist? And what percentage of Americans do identify themselves as fundamentalists? I don't think it'd be a scary percentage (majority) or if it is, I must have always traveled in the wrong circles, because any real, true religious fundamentalists I've ever met in America have been few and far between.

In fact, now that I think about it, in twenty years of my own education, I never had one science teacher who discounted evolution or who taught anything but evolution, never even broaching the subject of creationism or intelligent design in the classroom, and in twenty years of teaching, I've never met one science teacher who didn't teach evolution or who even had the desire or motivation to broach creationism or intelligent design in the classroom. So I'm wondering-where are all these people hiding out? Probably in fundamental christian private schools-which would make sense.

But again, I think if you relied on this study to give you an idea of what Americans believe or are like, you'd be getting a deceptive picture.

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Anyway, a major issue is that religion, in the US, is a political issue.

Here in Norway that is a big no-no, and anyone who would attempt to bring religion into politics is committing career suicide.

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Americans are just as any other people, we are all human beings with the same "needs and wants." It is our governments who believe we are all stupid, yet they are the ones who preach about spreading democracy while at the same time they usurp democracy at home with their anti-terrorist legislation, misinformation and lies about a phony war on terror.
The governments are creating the terror with their warnings of potential terrorist attacks, it is true third world countries, and in some cases developed countries such as Japan, Spain and Britain, use terrorism as a means of fighting back but I feel confident the Islamic world is not out to conquer the Western World as Bush and his allies would have us believe, Bush and his cohorts are the ones using the threat of terrorism as a control mechanism. Since this phony war on terror was announced Intelligence Agencies in the US, Britain and Australia have reportedly arrested terrorists in our midst, however I have yet to read reports of these people being tried in a court of law; governments have changed the rules so they can hold innocents without trial, all in support of the so called war on terror; in that regard we are all stupid.
That is my opinion.

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aidan wrote:

I didn't vote for George Bush, and I don't think he's presidential material, but do you realized that when you (and others) accuse him of being a part of 9/11 in any way, you're accusing him of being a mass murderer (deliberately and with forethought outside of a war)? That's a pretty serious accusation to make against a person, and not within a citizen's rights under freedom of speech. It's called slander or libel (depending on whether it's spoken or printed). If I were him, I'd be suing people for defamation of character (unless it was true). What's his reaction been?

But I also wonder why we aren't liberating people in areas of the world that are less rich in natural resources. That is an interesting question, if we, as Americans, are so passionate about everyone's right to live free and under a democracy.

On your former statement, why is criticism of the admin of America not freedom of speech, but slander? The government is for the people, by the people, and if it isn't, then why not? Read some of the following link. It is neither kook-driven agenda-based slander, nor is it based on hearsay. The links within that link are to sites from major periodicals and news sources.

You might get some insight into why non-Americans are looking at Americans with distrust and thinking of them as either naive, or simply too entrenched in believing their own news sources to the exclusion of other's.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/WAT911OmmissionReport.htm

On your latter statement, I would propose that propaganda and flag-waving seems to fool some of the people some of the time.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

It's been said by many but worth repeating that people as individuals are okay but as a group is there anything more stupid?

Lemmings? Sheep?

A third example fails me.

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Lemmings? Sheep?

A third example fails me.

Humans... Lemmings, sheep and humans.

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Builder wrote:

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On your former statement, why is criticism of the admin of America not freedom of speech, but slander? The government is for the people, by the people, and if it isn't, then why not? Read some of the following link. It is neither kook-driven agenda-based slander, nor is it based on hearsay. The links within that link are to sites from major periodicals and news sources.

It's not simple criticism of the administration. This is an accusation of mass murder. That's slightly different in my book than simple criticism of an administration , which I agree is politics as usual and the right of every citizen in a democracy.
I admit I haven't read the links yet, but I will. Yet, I still say that unless there is some smoking gun or preponderance of evidence, or until charges are brought against George Bush and his administration based on some probable cause to indict them of something- to engage in speculation and to accuse these people of mass murder goes beyond free speech and enters the realm of slander and libel.

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You might get some insight into why non-Americans are looking at Americans with distrust and thinking of them as either naive, or simply too entrenched in believing their own news sources to the exclusion of other's.

This is almost exactly what I said in my first post on this thread-that Americans have an insular attitude that manifests itself in their ability to take what they need and want, and believe whatever they must believe, so that they will feel justified in doing what they have to do to get what they need or want-no matter what the cost to the rest of the world.

It's a very convenient ability to manipulate and deny-and it has very little to do with being stupid or naive-in fact I think it indicates pretty much the opposite of those two characteristics.
(And I'm including myself in this. I have to admit I'm pretty good at seeing things the way I'd like them to be when I need or want something-although so are most people-so maybe it's not only Americans we should be talking about . Speaking of sheep, lemmings and humans, what is anyone else doing to make any of it change?)

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Speaking of sheep, lemmings and humans, what is anyone else doing to make any of it change?

Naive americans

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