Modern Society and the Value of our Values

Pumpkinhead,
Good to read you. An interesting thread....

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank, My belief as a atheist is a conclusion, not a guess. I know for certain that any god imagined by man does not exist. That "is" my reality. c.i.

Do you know there are no gods?

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Frank; you know me, can't resist!

If one is to examine reality, looking for a "construct"; evidence, we agree, is of paramount importance.
When, and we still agree, there is no (to take a phrase from your paste buffer) unambiguous evidence pointing to one hypothesis; that there are supernatural influences, the scientific protocol is to discard the hypothesis, and look for another explanation, rather that clinging to it in a garish attempt at "fairness", and claiming total failure at deciding anything.
(A little "over the top? mais certainment!)

And Dux; welcome to the fray; however, while I'm in the critical mode;
Please, in spite of the "heat of the moment", read your comments over before you post them; some parts are virtually undecipherable;
Actually, upon second reading, I sense that English is not your first language, so I will muddle through, and ask questions when in doubt.

For example: what do you mean by "the humans like have a simple & a false life" ?

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GoBoWo wrote:

Quote:

In a void where no absolute values exist, there is infinite choice, since there is no right, and no wrong!
In such an environment, as I agree this one is, choice is paramount; but of course, with the choice comes responsibility - it is precisely because nothing matters, that the individual's choice becomes to fully important.

We count on each other to keep this planet alive and well, and able to support life; and, with a little luck, able to support a life worth living for all that choose to participate. So all those choices matter intensely

Yes it matters on a species level, on a particular level, on an individual level.

But ultimately the choice is either nihilism or god. If there is no god, transcendence, universal consciousness, the beyond, etc.,.....life is meaningless, pointless etc., for there is no one for it to have meaning to.

Ultimate meaning transcends the particular, but if there is no ultimate meaning, no god, no transcendent self, etc., there is no ultimate meaning, value, reason etc.

It's nihilism.

So to whom does life have value ? To you/me/us, yes, but to whom are you/me/us valuable and meaningful if there is nothing else, no other level, no transcendence?

Of course I think there is a transcendent, universal consciousness, god etc., as I think our 'relative' value would be unsustainable without it.

We can't partition the universe

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:

Frank, My belief as a atheist is a conclusion, not a guess. I know for certain that any god imagined by man does not exist. That "is" my reality. c.i.

This is where I agree with Frank. A belief IS a guess, a belief is always a guess, the words define each other, they are synonymous.

And I read the word 'conclusion' in your sentence above as meaning, guess, belief, suppose etc..

Although I part with Frank when he claims that the reverse is not true; that all guesses are not beliefs,....that's absurd, they are.

.... any god imagined by man does not exist.......I agree because of your use of the word 'imagined'.

But there may be some people who know god exists, and therefore any beliefs or guesses which state no one knows if god(s) exists would be wrong.

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.... any god imagined by man does not exist.......I agree because of your use of the word 'imagined'.

Then again, one could imagine the truth, so your statement here is not an absolute....

As such I do not agree.

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BoGoWo wrote:

Quote:

In a void where no absolute values exist, there is infinite choice, since there is no right, and no wrong!
In such an environment, as I agree this one is, choice is paramount; but of course, with the choice comes responsibility - it is precisely because nothing matters, that the individual's choice becomes to fully important.

As a number of Dostoyevski's characters ponder, "if God is dead, then everything is permitted" (or a different formulation: "if God is dead, then nothing is forbidden"). This is the nihilist Void.

"Infinite choice" is nihilism. Well that's my understanding at this moment.

Fascinating though!

Infinite choice means nothing matters...............

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Frank, There are no gods that man has imagined it; they are based on beliefs/conclusions/imagination/trust/faith/guess. On the same token, I believe, conclude, imagine, trust, have faith, and guess that no god exists. My argument doesn't need the answer to "for sure," because that's impossible to answer - as is who will be president in the year 3000? I just don't care. c.i.

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Twyvel;

You say "So to whom does life have value ? To you/me/us, yes, but to whom are you/me/us valuable and meaningful if there is nothing else, no other level, no transcendence?";

Are you/me /us not enough?
I do not need anyone else to validate my choices, but myself; since I am my most stringent critic; however agreement from a respected source is nice!

But I most definitely do not need any decreed or mythically enshrined system of guidelines, be they from the ancient past, or totally current, to assess my actions, and asign me a place in the universe.

Is this OZ? Do we need some foolish person orchestrating theatrics from behind some mystical curtain, in order to know that what is, "is"?

And you muse - "Infinite choice is nihilism".

A state of being where absolutely nothing matters, is simply a "clean slate"; nothing is preordained; nothing has already been decided beyond our reach of influencet; therefore we choose - everything, and live or die on the fallout of those choices, and bear the ultimate responsibility for them in a kind of "relay" fashion in concert with our fellow beings.

Life is not a dieocentred dictatorship, but more a co-operative!

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whatta circle jerk

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BoGoWo wrote:

For example: what do you mean by "the humans like have a simple & a false life" ?

I apologize, what i meant is most humans enjoy a simple life, & most simple things are not so simple, like for example the wind, you feel it, but it contains millions of atoms, & it has a cause, & so something like that isn't simple, so simple things are not true. That's another reason why some people who are practical believe in God(s), cause it makes their life easy & simple, & their lifes are false, because in my opinion & few experiences truth is so complicated.

& yes BoGoWo, English is my second language, Spanish's my first

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Ah Frank, i am delighted, as always by the intellectual purity, nay, moral purity of the agnostic point of view. As you do not know (which is the definition of agnostic), you contend that no one else knows--the equivalent of the Presbyterian shoving both theism and predestination down someone's throat. All i see you doing, is proseletizing your belief as vigorously as ol' Billy Graham.

Once again, c.i. has provided a riposte to which i see no need to add anything. Your insistence on majesterially imposing your incertitude on his and my conclusions about reality is meaningless, just another exercise in imposing one's beliefs on others because it is uncomfortable to contemplate the possibility that one does not have all the answers. I don't have all the answers, it doesn't bother me, and i reach the same conclusion as c.i. based on the evidence, and leave the consideration of this particular question in the "out" box of my meditation, because it has been effectively disposed of. Have the courtesy not to tell me what atheists believe, you begin to sound like the jokers Maxsdadeo and company are fond of linking.

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Dux;
Actually your English is well above and beyond my Spanish, so we'll be happily proceed in English.
While your pointing out the complexity of natural phenomena is very true, it is, in many cases the inate simplicity of certain aspects, that is most notable.
The complexity of the "diety" debate, with all its "baggage" of tradition and fear, gives way to the very simple fact that none of it is needed to explain anything, and thus should be discarded as irrelevent.

Frank; while, as you know, I agree, in principle with almost everything Setanta has stated, I hasten to speak for both of us (quite out of turn, as usual - no appologees!), in adding that your underlying wisdom, added to these discussions is always worth a dose of the "evangelism of uncertainty".

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twyvel wrote:

Although I part with Frank when he claims that the reverse is not true; that all guesses are not beliefs,....that's absurd, they are.

I'm sorry, Twyvel, but you are wrong here.

ALL beliefs are guesses (or estimates/suppositions/conjecture/etc.)...

...but not all guesses, estimates, suppositions, conjectures, etc. are beliefs.

The use of the word "belief" is an attempt to disguise the fact that the guess is a guess.

If a guess is presented as a guess -- it is not a belief -- because no one is trying to pass it off as anything but a guess.

The significant and necessary ingredient of a "belief" is that it is called a "belief" -- in other words, there is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is a guess. If that attempt is not made, it is not a belief -- it is simply an undisguised guess.

I hope you understand that difference, Twyvel -- and that you can come to appreciate it.

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The agnostic position never fails to unsettle theists and atheists. That is as it should be.

One of the reasons I put so much effort into trying to persuade people who identify themselves as "atheists" to change that designation to "agnostic" or "agnostic atheist" is because the agnostic position is unassailable.

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apparently not on A2K, Frank :wink:

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Setanta wrote:

Ah Frank, i am delighted, as always by the intellectual purity, nay, moral purity of the agnostic point of view. As you do not know (which is the definition of agnostic), you contend that no one else knows...

Oh no I don't, Sentanta.

I say I do not know -- and I say I suspect others don't either.

I also say that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to allow me to make a meaningful guess in either direction -- and I don't see enough unambiguous evidence upon which anyone else can make a meaningful guess either.

But I may be wrong on both.

Quote:

...All i see you doing, is proseletizing your belief as vigorously as ol' Billy Graham.

What belief, Setanta? What belief?

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sweetcomplication wrote:

apparently not on A2K, Frank :wink:

Nah, Sweet, it is unassailable here also.

Here's the situation.

We have some people saying "There are no gods."

We have others saying "Oh yes there are -- there is my God."

I am saying: I don't know if there are gods or not -- and there doesn't seem to be enough unambiguous evidence to point in one direction or the other.

That is unassailable.

The agnostic position drives theists and atheists nuts because they much prefer the more comfortable position of "Oh yes there is!" -- "Oh no there's not!"

I love the fact that they are all willing to defend their guesses so strongly. And I truly enjoy discussing this with them.

Where are you in this, Sweet?

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I agree that admission of ignorance in unassailable. That does not translate into an automatic ability to assail.

Yes, it's imposible to disprove that you don't know something. But just because you don't know does not lessen the value of other conclusions drawn. You say you do not see evidence that would elad you to a conclusion. I can accept that. But others do see that evidence. In fact, I personally see enough evidence so as to make me think avoiding a decision toward theism or atheism to be a position that can be argued against.

Back to the salt mines..

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Frank wrote:

Quote:

I'm sorry, Twyvel, but you are wrong here.

ALL beliefs are guesses (or estimates/suppositions/conjecture/etc.)...

...but not all guesses, estimates, suppositions, conjectures, etc. are beliefs.

The use of the word "belief" is an attempt to disguise the fact that the guess is a guess.

If a guess is presented as a guess -- it is not a belief -- because no one is trying to pass it off as anything but a guess.

I think this is one of your personal odd ideas or beliefs that does not stand up to scrutiny.

It's not rational to maintain as you do, that...

The use of the word "belief" is an attempt to disguise the fact that the guess is a guess.

Your statement is a generalization and simply cannot be applied to all situations; all uses and users of that word.

Example:

"I believe s/he is cooking pork chops for dinner."

One cannot seriously maintain that the use of the word "believe" in the above sentence is an attempt to disguise the fact that it is a guess, or that the guess is a guess.

Most everyone knows it is a guess. There might be chicken for dinner, or it might be vegetarian (preferably), etc. The person uttering those words is saying s/he does not know, but is guessing, and the guessing is not disguised consciously or unconsciously, by using the word "believe".

If it doesn't apply to that example, (and there are many others), then your statement,

The use of the word "belief" is an attempt to disguise the fact that the guess is a guess.

..is false.

No one can know the intentions, beforehand of everyone using that word. One cannot reasonably assume that everyone using the word 'believe' is attempting to disguise a guess.
There has to be a reason to do so, there has to be a reason to deceive and lie, and in most cases there simply isn't one.

I would say a better approach would be to look at each case on an individual by individual basis.

You're doing the same thing some theists etc. do.

Some say my belief is not a guess.

You maintain your guesses are not a beliefs.

Both are wrong.

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Modern Society and the Value of our Values

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